Chen taiji/ yang taiji statement

[Shooter]

Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?

Northern Lights Tai Chi players have fought NHB and sub-wrestling and a few of us have done quite well for ourselves over the years.

How many Chen stylists have fought in MMA or competed against at least intermediate level grapplers?

[Brad]

''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

I'd say yes and no. I can see how Chen's form work could be too hard on the body for some people, and Yang Cheng Fu's form would be easier to practice. I think Sun's form is even easier on the bod then YCF's form though.

When it comes to fighting though, can't really say which is better. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many Taiji groups of any style that have put out quality fighters in a sports arena. William C.C. Chen(Cheng Man Ching Taiji-a YCF offshoot) is one, and I think a member of one of these forums is a San Shou competitor that does Wudang taiji(the group that branched off of wu style?)

[Syd]

It sounds like a cop out.

But it isn't, it's just the way things are. If you want to fight in the ring, off ya go, but I've got no use for it.

How can someone crippled for life hand you your arse? Double K.O ?

It's just my way of saying I wouldn't go down without letting the bugger know they were in one, thats all. You think a person always puts someone down without sustaining injury to themselves also? Anything and everything is possible...

''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

All the Yangers I know have no interest in learning Chen; they don't discuss Chen because it's not relevant, not because they can't do it. The above statement is ignorant. You choose an art and you do it because you want to, not because you can't do something else.

[backbreaker]

What about Yang style with pao chui? Do you know old yang style cannon fist? What does it look like? I learned the first quarter or so of chen style cannon fist. Does anyone know guang ping yang style? Does it have cannon fist?

[Syd]

I practice Old Yang Style which is totally different from the Cheng Fu forms in terms of intent and martial application. It is allot closer to the Chen style than it is most anything else. There are leaping kicks, explosive expressions of fajin, stamping the ground and silk reeling etc. This is what I think of when I am talking about Yang Style... not Cheng Fu's art.

The only thing we perform that is called Pau Chui is the Small and Large San Sau. I just wish the Taijiquan community could get beyond the disharmony of Styles and look to the unifying elements. We're all part of the same family art. If a Wu stylist or some other style went up against another art and won tomorrow, do you think other Taiji stylists wouldn't claim it a victory for Taijiquan and stop caring about the division on arts?

Chen, Wu, Yang, Hao, Sun, Li... they are all great, just different.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

Chang Tung Sheng's Tai Chi Chuan, a Yang style derivative can be used for fighting, and a good number of its practitioners also fight competitive San Shou and Shuai Chiao.

This style is currently being taught by Dr. Daniel Weng in Cupertino, Oakland and San Francisco, around the United States and in Brazil by his students. There are also other Chang Style students of Master Chang himself, teaching in the U.S. and around the world.

In the Chang Style Long Form there is one definite "Cannon Fist" sequence, as well as a side kick. Though kicks in Chang Style are sometimes used as throwing maneuvers.

It's kind'a like a style used to smooth out and relax, hard style fighters. though full of application of it's own.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
Someone said the other day- ''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

what are your opinions to this?

I can do both.

I do ba gua for the most part and do Yang taiji when I want a softer energy in my workout.

I find chen and bagua somewhat similar, same spiraling. At my current stage of development I can't do bagua as soft as taiji, my body won't let me. BUT, my teacher advocates the same soft approach.

I kinda find questions like this questionable, but here I am responding.

[brassmonkey]

I think it comes down to the teacher. I've heard of Yang, Wu and Sun(Cartmells Students) sparring but never any Chen, which Chen teacher's students do sparring?

[brassmonkey]

I take that back. Mike Patterson teaches a Chen style.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I am going to have to say that it is the fighter that makes the style, not the style that makes the fighter.

my experience- as for yang taiji, i have been shown alot more applications and techniques of boxing, chi-na, and shuia jow techniques, while the chen teachers basically just make you be very correct in silk reeling and form for so many years without teaching any applications and push hands or at least much of it, that it disinterests me.

if they do teach techniques or applications, it usually some chen family trick like trying to twist or bend their arm in which you cant.
i have respect for learning slow and exact postures, but most chen teachers teach either useless short forms and alot of silk exercises.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I do both.. find them to be complimentary.. I teach fighting at my school, with emphasis on good internal technique.. we are interested in the peace that comes from feeling adequately prepared to meet "most" of life's challenges..

Training hard to meet life's challenges is appropriate.. fighting to see who's best is ego gratification.. it's not impossible, but it is unlikely that someone will be mugged by a world-class MMA/IMA fighter.. short of that and guns, our training prepares us well..

As for styles.. learn the principles and the styles will take care of themselves.. it is the principles that make any style worthy of study..

Be well..

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd
[B]My last word on this; Most of the Taijiquan fighters I know are not interested in ring sports or fighting as sport.

The issue is not sport, my friend, it's about testing what you think you understand. How do you do that without getting into full contact? A tourney is a good place to do just that without breaking the law (unlike starting streetfights) Until you TEST what you think you know, you're gambling with your butt and living under a delusion of safety.

I think a difference may be where perhaps some of the Taiji community is coming from philsophically as opposed to the attitude and philosophy of BJJ. Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA's because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.

Eye jabs, throat shots, temple shots, etc etc etc... are all out the door.

That IS a cop-out, Syd. "Attitude" and "Philosophy" are far removed from the ability to fight. The eye-jab/throat shot thing is not a good arguement considering that there is public evidence showing that BJJ knows how to deal with it...

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
I am going to have to say that it is the fighter that makes the style, not the style that makes the fighter.

my experience- as for yang taiji, i have been shown alot more applications and techniques of boxing, chi-na, and shuia jow techniques, while the chen teachers basically just make you be very correct in silk reeling and form for so many years without teaching any applications and push hands or at least much of it, that it disinterests me.

if they do teach techniques or applications, it usually some chen family trick like trying to twist or bend their arm in which you cant.
i have respect for learning slow and exact postures, but most chen teachers teach either useless short forms and alot of silk exercises.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

In my neck of the woods we begin with standing, rollback, ward off, press, and push, move on to one short form and learn the apps right off the bat. Then comes the large frame long form, apps right off the bat. The apps we do are straightforward, not arcane "family tricks". Silk reeling is not pushed, but the people who practice the exercises usually do a bit better than the ones who don't.

[Syd]

JohnCain,

Sparring is not full contact unless you are striking temples, breaking arms and legs and applying the maximum force in the most realistic situation... ultimately unless you are in a real situation your still *not* in a *real* situation!

Who's kidding who here?

I understand the nature of your statement but I disagree with the trajectory... let's leave it at that, you won't convert me.

Merry Xmas...

[Brad]

Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA's because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.

Do you do that stuff in practice? NHB athletes have a set of skills that they can and do use in full power on a regular basis. If you can submit someone, that usually means you could also use that same technique to break your opponent. Taiji has punches, kicks, throws, and grappling. There's nothing preventing you from using taiji techniques in a tournement setting.
Basically it sounds like you aren't able to test anything in a live setting except some pushhands(which isn't fighting), much like some modern wushu forms athletes. Anyway, I don't think sport fighting is necesary to become a good fighter, but it IS a cop out to say that it's too limited... If you can't test your stuff in the ring because it's too dangerous, then you can't exactly test your stuff in school practice either can you? Unless you're going around breaking each others limbs and killing each other The closest you can get to a real situation(legally) is through tournement fighting.