The Common Jock Attack...

[Rolling Elbow]

Gentlemen,

Before any of the jokers come out to post replies here.., I would appreciate if we could keep this discussion on track and actually deal with the issue at hand rather than telling B.S stories...

The question I have for everyone is what type of attacks have you most commonly faced on the street. Outside of bars I have viewed the typical sucker punch, wild flailing arms and/or the grapple rush. Has anyone ever had to face another MA or a boxer in a situation outside of a bar where you were taken by surprise by the attackers attitude? If not, what type of wild attack did you face?

As this discussion is meant to be informative rather than an argument, I would like to hear from people concerning their observations during the fight...how did he move? was his weight distribution and balance poor? Did he only grab and punch or did he pull hair, strike the throat, head butt or apply shin kicks?

Please be serious here guys, I think it is a good chance for experienced people like Sifu Abel to make observations without being attacked. As I am relatively new here I hope that we can keep this topic in line for the few days that it might stay alive...

thanks.

[kenpoman]

I was at a party once when a TKD stylist lost his cool and kicked a guy in the head. The unexpecting recipient was kicked freakin hard, but still had the capacity to stand up and keep his cool (while stylishly backing down). The kick was unexpected, but more important was how the victim still had his faculties after the fact...so much for the one punch one kill theory, eh?

[jimmy23]

the wild fast, desperatrion punch,the standing clinch,those are what ive seen the most.A lot of groin kicks too.Most street fights start REAL close,usually the guy(were not talking about ambushes and sucker punches right?)will move real close,maybe put a hand on you,but get right in your face.To me ,the biggest word of advice is to remember that adrenaline will make your opponent a lot faster than usual and pain resistant.Hell do things that normally he couldnt,in terms of speed and power.
NEVER avert your eyes from the guy when he walks in close,running his mouth,even if a friend talks to you, or someone calls your name,taps on your shoulder,or whatever.Ive seen so many guys do this and get clocked that it isnt funny.
If you know hes a boxer(hell even if ya dont)look for the left hook (lead hook) as an opener.It doesnt telegraph much and it can end a fight.Before he throws it hell have one foot a little ahead of the other,thats the side the hook will come from.This too is a very common tactic,and will work for you too if you throw a hook properly.Oddly enough,Ive met very few martial artists that throw a hook,they usually disdain it as a "boxing" technicque,and sadly leave this wonderful attack out of their arsenal.
The other attack of note,again one that Ive seen shut down martial artists,is to grab with one hand and bomb ya with the other.Hell grab ya,pull or push a little and bash you with shots.Remember the adrenalin strength,and forget most of the "self defense against a grab" crap you learn in school,It WONT work.Believe me or not,i was a bouncer for many years and I saw this over and over.He will pull your head down if possible,this is almost an instinctual move to do.
It is hard enough to stop this stuff,especially if theres more than one guy,so I highly recommend leaving the place or ,if you cant,attack first when violence is eminant(sp?).These attacks,though not pretty,will work good for you too,be realistic and get familiar with them.
Why do you think Abel is an experienced streetfighter?Not to attack,abel has much more endurance and taste for a flame war than I,but I dont recall him recounting any real fights hes been in.Just curious.

[Rolling Elbow]

Good point Jimmy...I guess I kind of figured Sifu Abel was bringing allot to the table. But let's not count him out yet, he may have something to add..

You made a few good points, the clinch and punch is VERY common. Especially up here (Canada) where everyone plays hockey or has played at one level or another, the tendency is to grab, pull a jersy over the head and punch away. That and the tackle are common. The wild punch too is as i've seen also a big seller...In grab defenses you are right. Defense #5 will do nothing for you when a punch and hit comes unless you've learned just move your body in any way away from it...so moving the target around to(your head)

I wondered at what point you might consider hitting the individual? If he is getting in one's face and slowly moving forward, how and when should one decide to hit? Give him one back up warning then strike? I guess that is the only thing to do. The only thiong here is that if you strike, you have to commit to fight. If you commit to fight, you have to know that you will get hit and the fight goes on in all probability until HE decides to stop coming at you or has kicked your ass sufficiently.

I am surprised by the groin kick as it was told to me a long time ago by people like my brother (who have had a fair amount of scraps outside bars in his younger days), that kicking in the groin is dishonourable in street fighting and that the moment it happens, everyone jumps in the game. Well...i never saw things that way and I'll hit with anything and to anywhere on the body.

Godd posts soo far, keep em coming...As for the taekwondo story, did the kicker start jumping around after the kick or take a strong stance? I have this conception of TKD people as jumping around an awful lot but not remaining rooted whatsoever...

[nospam]

I recall 2 fights I witnessed in my yout. One was in a locker room with very little space to move. It involved more boxing straight jabs and the odd (wild) hook to the head. No terrible damage. No one stepped in, it was toe-to-toe.

Another fight I witnessed involved a buddy of mine. It was more of your step in, throw one strike, step out. My buddy was relectant to fight, but the damage wasn't that much on either side. Here too, both people stood (basically) toe-to-toe.

My comment, most people fight this way. Probably because of the influence boxing has on most of our lives, even if all we have done is watch it on television or closed circuit. Toe-to-toe, in my opinion is how most folks go at it.

Although, in the heat of the moment, if the attacker is really bent for destruction (usually being emotionally charged), I have seen the dreaded charge, with the back fist cocked and striking repeatedly like a piston, while the other hand goes for a grab. These strikes are usually repeated overhead blows.

I believe that unless one of the fighters is emotionally charged, caution wins out 97% of the time and both parties will stand toe-to-toe. If, on the other hand, one is emotionally driven, then they simply see RED and like a bull...charge forward willie-nillie.

The last UFC bout I watched, there were these 2 massive behemoths that charged at one another at the beginning of the fight. As they closed, both suddenly stopped, took up fighting positions and proceeed to taunt and measure oneanother. I thought it was interesting. I realise there is a good chance you add to your opponent's defense charging in full-bore, but if this is measured with distinctive technique (half-assed bridging skills), this can become advantageous, especially when your opponent is backpeddling within reach.

One last note, I only mentioned this one UFC fight, out of context, to illustrate my observation of toe-to-toe mentality. Seeing that UFC is primarily a grapplers paradise, I fully understand why the people stop to square up in a much more 'safe' measure.

Myself, move...hit...move....hit/move...move some more. Kicks become ineffective quickly in this regard.

[Rolling Elbow]

Thanks nospam, I too feel like kicks are a little dangerous for me..i prefer body movement and elbow-fist-palm strikes. Throw in some basic trapping or jamming and sticking principles with an awareness of grappling or wrestling skills, and I think an individual should be set to go in your average street fight. If he remains calm and thinks about making his strikes count, the untrained fighter should be able to be overcome...but the right decisions have to be made quick and without hesitation.

Thanks for the post...tell others to visit so that I may gather as much insight into this as possible..Don't worry i don't operate a McDojo, it is for my own interest and study..

[BrutallyFrank]

I'm a late comer to this forum, I apologize. I'm hoping some of you guys will be back here to post again, there is some good stuff posted on this issue so far.
Rolling Elbow, I have to agree with you 100% on the hockey influenced fighter. Hell, the grab-and-pound-away technique is is most common in my neck of the woods (Montreal) and I've seen it even in Brooklyn NY where I live now. You opened the question to trigger this discussion talking about 'attacking jocks' and I would like to comment briefly on that. If the jock in question happens to be an experienced hockey player, you can safely assume that he also has a short fuse on the ice, and that he has been in a few scraps before. That taken into account, I can tell you as a hockey player myself, that you will definitely NOT have to contend with the Tae Kwon Do jump around! (I had a good chuckle at that one!) Understand that hockey enforcers(fighters) have a level of balance and strength unparalelled with any other non MA athlete! Trust me, fighting on the ice helped me quite a bit in KFu. Assuming he is right handed, your hockey attacker will most definitely be quick to grab your shirt just left of your throat to start. If you are wearing a strong fabric collared shirt for example he will have a strong grip on you, and this will prove annoying because unless you are significantly taller, his left arm will be blocking any chance of your countering with even a straight snap jab. An affective uppercut is also out of the question. Also, forget using counter-balancing techniques TOWARD you because hockey players stand with all their weight on their back legs and he will be pull you toward him with a lot force to get his right fist into the center of your face with a slight crossing motion. Contrary to what some people believe, hockey players don't pack a big followthrough either unless they are getting tired (if you noticed, 90% of NHL fights end with one player falling on top of the other). So what do you do?
To start, whatever you do, DON'T crouch down. I know that all of us here have KFu backgrounds(I hope) and that instinctly we tend to react by taking a stance we are comfortable with. Try to take as tall a stance as you can. If your attacker is quick, avoiding taking a punch might not be an option. Brace yourself from the get-go and bite down hard and/or tuck your chin in as hard as you can to the opposite side of your attacker's gripping hand. Then you will use your left palm (anyone doing extensive iron palm training rejoice!) to come up with a snap under and inside his left elbow. (Be quick after his first punch, hockey players have a tendency to pack a lot of power without pulling back far at all). Then grab his left wrist with your left hand, pull to the right, take your familiar stance and, well, do your thing! (you know kung fu!) I've used this technique to the T three times in Montreal and it never failed me. If you pack a minimum amount of power in your snap, it will end quickly and with a minimum amount of damage. And if your attacker really IS a canadian hockey player, help him up, smile, pat him on the back and he'll buy you a beer (it's customary). You've just made a friend! :-)
Cheers!
CT

[Underdog]

Hi guys, I'm from Italy and just EVERYONE here plays soccer. Adding to the attacks you have mentioned, that are universal I think, here is common to strike the shin-knee area with a kick with the tip of the shoe, just as you would kick a soccer ball. The takedown in Italy is a nonexistent move. Noone train in wrestling here. The times I used it, it has worked very well cause it was unexpected.

As for counterattacks, the one that did best for me is that: whenever a guy start to mouth off and lunge, I stomp his knee with a front stomp done with my right leg (I'm a southpaw), usually this shift my weight to the back leg, so if he throw something, he has a good chance of missing. Nothing fancy as you see.

Ciao!

[jimmy23]

i like the different attitudes by region here.it seems(from these postings) that Canadians are basically good ole boys,theyll whip your butt then buy ya a drink,but if ya fight dirty (groin shots) then look out,you got to fight everyone now.
Underdogs ugly and scary attack (and effective I might add) shows that in soeme areas low line attacks are acceptable.Odd how the dominant sports in an area affect the peoples style and perceptions of fighting.
Here in Mississippi,at least the places where I bounced which were dives,there is no honor at all,its what I call ghetto fighting.Im willing to bet that in any impoverished area this attitude is prevalent.Groin kicks,teaming up,using weapons,all are going to happen.it isnt whether its fair,its who wins,no matter how the wins occurs.In poor areas i think there tends to be a stronger "rat pack" bond,and loyalty to the group is the most important attribute you can show,whether the group is your friends,gang members,or members of your bouncing crew.Any thoughts on this?

[Rolling Elbow]

Man am I happy that my post came alive fellas! It is true that Italians will kick, I lived there and was born there and I remember the type of attacks..mass sworming of skinheads on a few people. Had to break it up once or twice with my pals..they all just kicked and kept distance from person they were attacking. I still remember my buddy Paul, some skin got ****ed that we broke it up, so Paul took a karate stance and smashed the guy in the nose! Boy was he ****ed!

Anyway, in Canada things aren't that jovial anymore..today if you get in a fight, it is very seldom that your or his friends won't jump in the mix. But essentially, I will give our trouble makers here more credit because it is trrue that they have good balance and "shirabe" as it is called in taijutsu. Because they have always relyed on the clinch and feeling out the elbows and shoulders of the opponent, they get good at tying you up. They haven't develloped the subtle soft applications of sensitivity though. While trying to get a hold of you though, they look pathetic if trying to close the gap from across the dance floor or something. This is actually where push hands come into effect, if you meet his hands with yours a.k.a the Ueshiba hand in front of face, he will invariably meet it to get it out of the way or grab it. This sucks if he is in wing chun or knows trapping skills but likely when they are drunk and want to kick your ass, they will just "bring it on" and yell and bounce allot. Personally, staying relaxed and calm is hard and I have not yet tried it in a real confrontation, but I know on reaction that meeting the hands and redirecting energy is a great way of countering their attacks. Of course as soon as you hit, you need to keep hitting the *******s.

Keep em coming...who has any thoughts of when you should strike? The old back me into a corner or when he gets right in your face?

[Rolling Elbow]

Woah, my spelling and grammar was horrendous there, please accept my appologies.

[mild7]

Regarding the attack where someone grabs your lapel/neck and pounds you with his other hand....
What is taught at aikido/tkd/karate etc dojos generally is to respond with locking the grabbing arm.
From experience... this is very hard to pull off.. especially as Jimmy has mentioned, the purpose of grabbing is to control. I've never seen anyone in a serious assault situation just grab and stand there.. more often than not i will be to pull in or push down etc.
One thing about this though, is that while a guy is using one arm to grab you, you generally know that it's going to be the other arm that will nail you, and his grabbing arm can't hit you either. It's best to respond by striking back while defending against his punching arm. Forget the 'selfdefense' moves. IF you land a good shot he will let you go, or will be weakened so you can apply your lock a lot easier(classic jujitsu/ninjitsu). Then it becomes a whole new ball game.
Bruce Lee himself advocated this, striking a grabbing attacker rather than doing a 'circular' takedown while th other guy nails you in the face.

[takedown]

Elbow,

What the hell is a jock attack?Please enlighten me.

[BrutallyFrank]

Mild7, In regards to your last posting, I agree that the average Joe Nobody that will grab you at the collar may not pose much of a problem in terms of hitting first and getting it over with. If you were referring to my last post, understand that I was being perhaps a bit over-specific as to the type of assailant you would be dealing with. I'm certain that Rolling Elbow will agree that whether you hit first or not, the big-angry-drunkened-puck pusher will take a licking and keep on ticking; tough cookies. Also, most of these on-ice encorcers are FAST right handed punchers (rolling elbow, remember Troy Crowder? :-)) and as I've mentioned, very, VERY solid on their feet and therefore extremely difficult to take down even for somoene of experience. But then again, there I guys I know that can pull crazy magik tricks when it comes to quick take downs, and they happen to be my aikido pals!
Great stuff guys keep 'em coming!

[Rolling Elbow]

The Jock Attack is your common drunk frat-boy out for a fight...attacks include the Canadian special grab and pound, the tackle, the hay-maker, or bottle to the head.

It is true, Canadian Tiger has made a good point. These puck *******s are strong man. If you knock them down, usually they will take you with them because it has been engrained in their fighting style to bring the other guy to the ice with you and jam his arms until the refs jump in...and man these *******s can punch like Wing Chun guys. Usually if you can fend off the 15-20 seconds of adrenaline punches, they will tire and go for a wrestlers clinch with the odd punch. But man, they can hit and the knuckles are conditioned from hitting the helmets half the time.

I would say as sson as contact is made, shift the balance 45 degrees. As he punches you have moved your head and have some of his momentum to play with. Also, striking the bicep or upper chest will temporarily jam him..Forget the takedowns. Gozo Shioda (Yoshinkan Aikido-the rough stuff) once said 90% of a fight is atemi or striking. You have to hit these *******s atleast 4-5 times and then which ever way their body is going, take them in that direction. Don't be nice, they sure as hell aren't when they are feeding you.