What do you all think of this empty flower cilp?

[Royal Dragon]

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell.../tj_day_03.wmv

[EDIT] I'd like to add that I have no idea who these two individuals are, what school they are form, or anything, I'm looking strictly for technical opinions of the techniques being shown, especially if you BJJ guys feel they could be applied against the shoot.

[count]

I think Master Su Dong Cheng is an excellent showman.
Very practical techniques too.

Not sure Matt's shoot was to swift, but than it's just a demonstration. I was there BTW.

[Royal Dragon]

Cool!! I actually watched all the clips in this group, and got some good insite. My harddrive is starting to fill up with Empty flower clips now, I'm gonna have to burn them all into a CD soon to clear room.

[Merryprankster]

As it was just a demonstration, it's hard to say.

However, the position of the shooter was less than optimal. I'm not just talking about a wrestling style shot, either. A Morote Gari (sort of a half shot) still puts the center of gravity in a better position than that for recovery purposes (ie, you fail and need to attack again). Look how far the shooter is leaning forward. He can barely help falling over.

Could they work? I suppose. I'd prefer the knee counter he showed if there were more emphasis on making sure you clear the leg (either through moving the leg or ensuring the grip is broken) first.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy

"Shooting" at person's legs really is not the best technique.
I know the "shooter" would disagree with me on this. To the "modern shooter", they believe this is their "short cut" because most people did not train for "counter shooting" and that give them some advantage.

That's not it. shooting is just a viable option. And, it works. grapplers have several takedowns, not just shots, but shot is just as viable as any other. Also, you don't have to go to the ground after doing it. you can just dump them and keep going. I don't think it's so much as "people don't train for shots" but more that they haven't been training for grappling. Many styles have throws in their forms, but not all schools practice them as religiously as a grappler does. Think of is as hacking - a hacker scans for open ports, and once he's in, he searches for holes in the system that he can exploit. Some systems' lack of grappling is just a hole to be exploited.

After everybody add their "counter shooting" into their daily drills then the way their thinking may change.

they just find another hole to exploit. That said, they will continue to use the shot as they see fit, as there are always opportunity, and not every counter will be effective every time.

Will it be better to get the joint lock while standing and then go down to the ground and finish it. At least you will have a earlier start. Going down to the ground then looking for joint lock will be risky. How do you know that your "grappler" technique is better then his? You don't want to go down and then find it out. It may be too late by then and no way to escape. Keep body mobility will be much safter approach in general.

How about a different perspective... What if you are getting overwhelmed by strikes? If that's the case, and you are confident in your grappling, shoot in on him - make him play your game. Also, as stated, they can throw/takedown without going to the ground.

[David Jamieson]

Not everyone shoots that low atthe onset. At least not anyone that is pretty good at it.

Shoulder into the gut or chest and as you get the motion going up and backwards on your opponent you wrap and pull the legs so he falls on his back.

I agree with merry, the guy (who is shooting the legs) is leaning to far forward to have any effect. I mean come on, he's looking at the guys feet! LOL

He should be coming in at same level and dropping in at arms length to pass.

The counters are alright though. I would be curious to see them in action against a trained shooter at full speed. That would be cool. I always like seeing kungfu done at full speed for these types of demos.

cheers

[count]

I'm surprised Matt hasn't spotted this and replied yet.

They wrote a book in Japan about the top 10 underground fighters of all time. I heard they added an 11th chapter for Master Su as he had beaten at least 5 of them. I'm quite sure his techniques are effective in real time. What you see on that clip is about half of what is happening. It's the other half you gotta fear.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy
I was assuming the following definition:

grappling - ground fight, you pull him down with you body weiight.

yeah, I was using a different definition. To me, grappling encompasses all grappling - standing throws/locks, the clinch and ground work. As we do all of it in judo and bjj, I lump it all into the definition of grappling.

Some grapplers are good at all the above but just like to finish the fight on the ground because today, most people are not used to this kind of fighting method yet (soon or later people will get used to it though).

That day is here. That's what caused MMA to evolve. Not everybody has made that step though...

In SC, there are a lots of low legs attacks but was done differently. You will push up both of his elbows first and then move in while his arms are no threaten to your entering.

We also do it that way. However, you will see some people rush in without regard to the arms. The assumption there is that he can get you before you do any major damage to him, which may or may not be true.

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I would like to see those counter tried at speed, with a good BJJ styleists doing the shooting. I wonder what the outcome would be?

[Unmatchable]

The neck twist is a good move that might work from a gullitone but could hurt someone bad so I would never use it. The rest is pretty crappy. I mean you could tell that by the time he moved out of the way the shoot already reached him, not to mention that he lamost fell over his own feet few times.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Personally, I would like to see those counter tried at speed, with a good BJJ styleists doing the shooting. I wonder what the outcome would be?

If you're going for the ideal, replace "good BJJ stylist" with "good wrestler". If you're gonna counter a good shot, might as well go for the people who are best at shooting.

[Unmatchable]

Check out the little dance they do at the beginning of the tape. You know, in the Street, everyone will help you get in a few practice steps like that so your timing will be corrrect. I also love how the grappler hits the guy and then loses all momentum.

[taijiquan_student]

Dude, the dancing thing was a joke...

[Unmatchable]

Ok now I understand. Peace.

[backbreaker]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...download&cid=1

I thought the Matt Thorton challenge vs Djimbe was hilarious


Also on the second page...ALL YOU XINGYI GUYS TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT THE WRESTLER VS KUNGFU UFC MATCH