Endurance/strength training with WC

[Gangsterfist]

What are some endurance and strength training you guys do with your WC?

Right now I just have an ab wheel and some push up bars. I have also tried doing my taiji and WC forms with ankle/wrist weights.

For endurance I usually do stance training, like sit in a low horse or cat stance for as long as I can. I also do some cardio drills every now and again, like jogging in place and then dropping down to do 10 push ups and then repeat.

What are some good exercises out there that you guys practice? Do you practice your wing chun while you work out (like forms or drills with wieghts)?

Its winter time and I want to stay in shape this winter. Too cold to go outside so I will be doing this stuff indoors. Also I am not looking to build mass, just strength and endurance.

[Keng Geng]

That depends... do want the endurance and strengthening exercises to aid the Wing Chun, or is it simply because you feel WC doesn't provide an adequate "workout"?

If it's for supporting your Wing Chun, the best thing to do are the motions of Wing Chun itself. For example, weight lifting - use hand weights while doing your form.

Some of the exercises I do:
Stance training - about 8 stances.
Moving stance drilling
Punching with hand weights
Kicking with ankle weights
Holding positions with weights (the positions with extended arms)
Staff drilling
Bat Chum Do Drilling

Of course, these are only a few, and the most obvious.

[Gangsterfist]

I am mainly just trying to make my work outs more effecient by practicing wing chun at the same time, and make them more fun. Sometimes the hardest part of working out is I get bored doing the same thing over and over again.

I am just looking for some work out drills, and such that other people do to maybe change it up a bit.

I do not feel that strength is not needed in wc. I do however, believe it does help you out a lot. I would say flexibility and endurance are a bit more important than strength. I like to stay healthy though. And this year I have decided to abstaine from a lot of things to get in real good shape.

[LC-NYC]

1. Get rid of the Ab Wheel. There are better and safer ways to develop your Abdominal Strength. The Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. Get an ab video. They have excellent routines.

2. Jump Rope for endurance. It's considered to be one of the best methods for cardiovascular endurance. Boxers jump rope all the time. You can jump rope in your home.

3. You can do calisthenics to develop strength without losing flexibility. When you do Calisthenics you tend to use a longer range of motion than when you do some weight training exercises. Look at Mat Fureys combat conditioning book.

4. Lop Sao, Chi Sao and Sparring can be an excellent tool to develop endurance and functional strength but it must be done the right way. Ask your instructor or another instructor for more details on this.

Good Luck with your training!

[Toby]

LC-NYC, I like the ab wheel. I don't see how it can cause knee injuries. I kneel on a pillow while doing it, but apart from a hard floor hurting the knees, I can't see an injury occurring. There's no way in the world I can do it on my toes yet, so that's not an option. I think it's an excellent exercise.

Gangsterfist, strength and endurance are two completely different things. You can't train both at the same time. E.g. I do powerlifting, which is generally < 5 reps with very heavy weights. If that was all I did, I'd have terrible endurance. E.g. at the moment I benchpress 20kg more than my weight for 5 reps, but I struggle to do 30 pushups. So you're looking at 2 different areas.

Anyway, for strength I do benchpress, squats, deadlifts and pullups. Low reps, heavy weight. 5 days a week. For grip strength I use Captains of Crush grippers and wrist rollers. 3 days a week. For abs I do Janda situps, weighted leg raises and the ab wheel. 3 days a week. Every few months I change up the exercises a bit for variety.

For endurance I jump rope daily, ride to uni daily and do Tabata protocol sprints twice a week. Also do a lot of endurance stuff at WC class. I've got a shoulder problem at the moment, but if I didn't, another good exercise would be hitting heavy bags and wallbags.

I don't like the idea of punching with weights. A lot of people don't. The problem is the danger of hyperextending the elbow. Also, the resistance is downwards whereas more realistic would be forwards resistance (like hitting bags).

[Brithlor]

I don't entirely agree with what the last poster said about weight punching.

You don't need to punch using 150 pound weights in order to get results so I see no danger of hyper extension...

But I do agree with the verticle punching, which is why I do punches from every angle to train each part of the punch (ie, on my back to train the pushing outwards motion of the strike).

[LC-NYC]

Toby,

I am not the first to say that the Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. I don't think the Ab Wheel is an excellent ab exerciser. Infomercials would like you to believe that it is. However, don't take my word for it. Do some research for yourself. I also once believed that the Ab Wheel was an excellent tool until I found otherwise. I was a proud owner of one.

You hit the weights 5x a week? Wow.....
Is it really necessary? Are you working on the same muscle groups every day? If you are that's a mistake for numerous of reasons. Check out ACE for updated information on Weight Training. Do you think that your shoulder problem is related to your workout?

Toby regardless of what's preferred do take take of your shoulder! Find out what's wrong and do the neccesary stuff to fix it! Your shoulder is very important.

[Toby]

Brithlor, I'm not saying you need 150lb either. I'm not entirely sure of how it increases the danger of hyperextension, but I've heard it enough times to think it's worth a warning. My theory? It increases the momentum of your punches, so it's harder for you to stop at the end of the punch, leading to the possibility of hyperextension. I dunno if that's the case, but many people mention hyperextension. Maybe slow punches are alright, I don't know.

LC-NYC, I made my own ab wheel, so infomercials played no part in my purchase. I am interested in the knee injury comments, though. I'm not dismissing your warning, but I fail to see how my knees (which remain essentially static) can be injured. I will do some research sometime, but I'd be grateful if you provided some links etc.

Regarding weights, I follow the PTP training methods outlined in the book "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline. It's been discussed many times on the training and health forum, so you can find info there about it. Basically it's 2 sets of 4-6 reps per exercise, heavy weights, increase by 5lb/day on a short cycle (I go for 2 weeks/cycle). It follows Eastern European training methods. It provides a method for great strength gains with little (effectively none) training soreness or fatigue. What's ACE? My shoulder problem is related to my previous workouts (up until mid last year). I did too much weights then, lifting 3 times a week with a very hypertrophic workout (doing different muscle groups each day).

My shoulder has osteolysis (AC joint decays). Very common in weightlifters, apparently. I should give it complete rest for 6 months, but I've always been a bad patient. It isn't getting any worse and is a minor discomfort at worst. My lifting volume has actually gone down and provided I'm careful with my form (in weights and WC) it should be alright. Surgery is the treatment in bad cases, but my specialist says that will never be necessary in my case because of the idiosyncracies of my particular joint.

[Gangsterfist]

Here go some alternative ab work outs I found using google.

http://exercise.about.com/cs/abs/l/blabworkout.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...cle=Abdominals

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/267ab.jsp

Did not find any mention of the ab wheel being bad for the knees.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
1. Get rid of the Ab Wheel. There are better and safer ways to develop your Abdominal Strength. The Ab Wheel can cause knee injuries. Get an ab video. They have excellent routines.

I think the ab wheel is awesome. I agree that you can find more effective methods though.

Jump Rope for endurance. It's considered to be one of the best methods for cardiovascular endurance. Boxers jump rope all the time. You can jump rope in your home.

definitely.

You can do calisthenics to develop strength without losing flexibility. When you do Calisthenics you tend to use a longer range of motion than when you do some weight training exercises. Look at Mat Fureys combat conditioning book.

strength gain does not inhibit flexibility unless you don't stretch properly. That is a myth.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
You hit the weights 5x a week? Wow.....
Is it really necessary? Are you working on the same muscle groups every day? If you are that's a mistake for numerous of reasons. Check out ACE for updated information on Weight Training. Do you think that your shoulder problem is related to your workout?

proper strength training can indeed hit the same muscle every day. you are training the neurological system to cntract harder, producing more power. It can be done every day. I follow a similar program. His shoulder problem could be releated to overuse from a repetitive movement like punching, push ups, etc. I injured mine back when I was doing 200 pushups 3 days a week.

[Tom Kagan]

A punch or a kick with weights and high intensity heavy bag use are forms of ballistic training. They are extremely stressful to the joints, ligaments, and sinew and, thus, should be integrated into an overall periodized program where the intensity is cycled and the exercises are phased.


Many excellent exercises exist. Have you ever tried an uphill fireman's carry after your main workout? How about carrying two squirming and sleepy kids (80+ lbs) up three flights of stairs while wearing full winter regalia?

Within the Ving Tsun system, however, the forms themselves are your conditioning. I would go so far as to suggest that concentrating on the conditioning aspects should be the crux of any solo play.

For a beginner, holding a fully sunk and solid YiJiKimYeungMa while playing SiuNimTao for upward of 30 minutes or more is physically difficult and mentally challenging. Pivoting cleanly and sharply within ChumKiu without losing balance also offers its own set of difficulties.

For the intermediate practitioner, BiuJee at full intensity, especially repeating without rest, will get you breathing hard.

Clean and quick dummy training can do the same, but the intent of the dummy is a just a bit different, so it is not as important there. However, if you can actually manage to make the dummy "come to life," not only will you get a good workout, but you'll begin to peer into the mindset of just how crazy you have to be in order take an inate ability to hurt, maim, and kill and hone it into a true artform.


But, at this point, you've only just begun your training in the system. The most difficult conditioning within the Ving Tsun system is pole preparation - JinChoi (battle punch). Though some practice it high (they have their reasons which I'm going to sidestep for the moment), I mean doing it low - 90 degrees hip/knee angle or even a bit lower.

Even when done properly everyday for 6 months you will still be wobbling the next day. By that time, your hips should develop a nice stretch, too.

WARNING: JinChoi done incorrectly - easy to do when too tired - could leave you without the ability to walk. If you're lucky, you won't require a doctor to to repair your ACL and/or meniscus.

BiuKwan numbering into the thousands or any extreme short-sword work - GwaiMa included (better known in english as a "shoot" ) - will be child's play if you can handle a full JinChoi cycle (about 80 meters up and back total).

Bored with solo Ving Tsun conditioning? I've found interval training to be very effective. Suicide runs with repeats will still make me nauseous, assuming I convince my lazy bones to do them properly when working out on my own.

[AndrewS]

Toby,

nice workout.

Are you doing bench one day, squat the next, dl the next or all three lifts the same day? The former seems to miss a little of the whole PTP point (which is basically a form of GTG with doing the same lift daily), the latter might put you into overtraining.

Why are you benching, and why on a bad shoulder? Bench doesn't seem to yield much training benefit, and tightens the h*ll out of your shoulders. Have you considered doing bent presses instead of benching if you want to work the shoulder girdle. They may beat up your AC less.

Later,

Andrew

[Gangsterfist]

Tom-

Thanks for your reply. I am not a beginer, nor am I an advacned student of Ving Tsun. I am the gray area inbetween. I train both Taiji and WC now on a regular basis. Before that I trained in Okinawan Karate, TKD, and a little bit of akido.

I love the science behind wing chun. I want to develope to its fullest potential, which means hard work and dedication to this art. I do push ups, rocky balboas, crucnches, leg lifts, stance straining, and foot work forms.

I remember the yeejeekimyuma being a bit stressful at first, but now I find it kind of comforting.

What kind of conditioning have you guys done? Like iron fist type stuff? To strengthen your fist, wrist, fingers, etc to apply certain WC techniques properly and with out injuring yourself. Obviously if you do not condition certain parts of your body you could injur yourself while trying to apply them. I have done wrist and finger push ups to help strengthen my hands and wrists. Ever do chi sao with someone and their arms feel like steel, but they still have no tension? One of my sibaks has solid arms (not big and muscular but solid as stone) and when you spar him you hurt yourself attacking him. When he will ton sao an incoming punch it hurts your arm to hit against his. He is not using force at all, just his skeletal structure.

Hope that makes sense.

[Tom Kagan]

Whatever level you're at is okay. I'm just a beginner. Of, course, my Sifu used to say that maybe he was just a step or two ahead of me but that he was a beginner too.

I have several SiHing with the "arms of steel" feeling you mention, though many, including some with the "arms of steel" prefer to play more from the "arms of a ghost" side of the pendulum. The worst is the "arms of steel" on a SiHing with skinny forearms. "Arms of a blade" is a more apt description for him.


Within my training there came a point where I was working the dummy more and more until I started to realize I was hitting it a lot harder than I expected given the effort I was expending. I knew this was happening because my hands started to ache pretty much constantly. Considering that the primary intent of the dummy is not hand/arm conditioning (a sadistic friend with a Louisville Slugger is a lot cheaper), it was at this point where I really began to truly understand what is meant by a periodized training regimen which cycles ballistic exercises.

That's also about when I finally figured out how to use a SaoBao properly (thank goodness).