realistic defense vs. drag down bear hug

**soundofwater** · 01-06-2004, 02:26 PM

I have scanned this forum and found a few posts on bear hugs but have a specific question for a particular and not uncommon situation:

Strong and quick bear hug from rear, arms are outside. Attacker quickly drops his weight, buries his head in your back to avoid elbow strikes, and blocks your leg at the ankle from behind and pulls you to the ground, hoping to land you on your side, but will accept pulling you down on top of him to beat you on the ground with excellent ground work.

This happens very quickly and at most you have one move to react to his one move of the initial grab. He does not try to pick you up, he merely wants to bring you to the ground quickly.

What counter move is possible in this situation which will prevent you from going down to the ground? Even a small person can "drag" down a larger person by pulling them backwards and downwards with their body weight along the weak axis of their stance. If you are not convinced of this, try it!

To make your response reasonable, assume your opponent is bigger, stronger, and highly motivated (robbery, jealousy, whatever).

Please, no comments about being asleep or not letting someone get behind you etc. since there are many situations that might allow this type of attack (ATM line, you really are asleep

, multiple opponents, etc.). Also, no multiple move techniques which require the attacker to stand by idly while you work him over.

You get whatever you could do in a fraction of a second before he can drag you down. Also, you, of course, don't know what he plans and shouldn't assume he won't pick you up etc. before he drags you down. Assume you have no knife in your hand, death ray gun, or superpowers.

One good workable move which could be executed by a smaller opponent which prevents you from going down...

Suggestions?

**mantisben** · 01-06-2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by soundofwater
...
Strong and quick bear hug from rear, arms are outside.
...

Who's arms are outside? Mine or the huggers?

**darksands** · 01-06-2004, 07:35 PM

Well, my hands are on the outside, I reach behind my back and grab his peaches and when I fall to my side, I steal the peach.

**18elders** · 01-06-2004, 08:55 PM

lets say he gets you to the ground, if your hands are on the outside they are free and you can use them, he can't use his if he keeps you in the hold. when i trained in ju jitsu the easiest thing was to take your free hand or hands and grab hold of one or 2 of their fingers and break them, he will let go.

**soundofwater** · 01-07-2004, 06:52 AM

Attacker's arms are firmly around your body with your arms free.
You get one move to prevent him from dragging/slamming you down; please, no discussion about what to do AFTER hitting the ground!

**Hua Lin Laoshi** · 01-07-2004, 08:23 AM

Interesting question. Since I don't have a readily available answer I would have to say, for now, that you may have to accept that you are going to the ground and attempt to take control of the situation and drop in a way that puts you in a favorable position. I guess it's along the lines of 18elders reply although that's not the answer you want.

You can't expect to be able to resist every attack. Sometimes you have to go with it, minimizing the damage until you can regain control. That's what conditioning and moving away from a punch are for. Some punches are gonna get through.

This is what I call Situation Based Applications. What I do (apparently you do this also) is take a situation, then go through my forms looking for an answer to that particular problem. I've come up with apps for moves that weren't easily recognized. This way you begin to build a database of responses to particular situations. This came from my Kenpo background where all the techniques you learned were responses to specific attacks (front bear hug, rear bear hug, arms free, arms pinned, etc.). Since the Kenpo training was a long time ago I don't recall the routine for the rear, arms free bear hug. Actually I could look it up since I still have all my notes and books but I would rather give a Wah Lum response.

Actually I do recall that the Kenpo technique was a side step and hammerfist to the groin but like darksands response it's not appropriate in this situation since opponent is crouched and the groin is not within reach.

**soundofwater** · 01-07-2004, 09:48 AM

Yes, I tend to break things down situationally.

In reference to having to go down and THEN fight, it means you must be able to work from a position on the ground, where your back is probably to your opponent (and he may be mounting or choking etc. very quickly as you hit the ground), and maybe after having been slammed on your side.

This immediately eliminates all standing techniques involving punching, kicking, throwing, etc. and puts you in a vulnerable position on the ground with limited mobility, especially bad in a multiple opponent situation.

In any situation except one-on-one where you are much better than your opponent on the ground (since you are starting in a bad position and which would be presumptious to assume) this could mean a very undesirable outcome.

So it is imperative that you avoid going down to improve your chances of surviving the attack.

Anyone else have a move or idea?

**SevenStar** · 01-07-2004, 10:53 AM

As soon as he grabs you, sink your weight. take your left foot and place it behind him. you will of course have to do this before he traps one of your legs. bend forward, grabbing his legs behind the knees and stand up, twisting to the left with your waist as you do so.

**SevenStar** · 01-07-2004, 10:55 AM

here's another.

thrust your hips backward into his stomach, creating some space. Bend foward, grab one of his legs and stand up, yanking his leg out from under him. once he's on the gounrd, kick him, run, etc.

**SevenStar** · 01-07-2004, 10:57 AM

you can always try that one you see on tv all the time - if he's your height, use your head to butt the bridge of his nose. Then use elbows.

**mantis108** · 01-07-2004, 11:38 AM

Well, here's my take:

There are a few things you can try as followed.

1) Rolling knee bar would be the first thing that comes to mind. But it takes more practice and may or may be suitable for street defense. In a sport situation, it is most ideal.

2) There is also a way to do an arm bar from that position as well as taking the guy to the ground. You don't have to go to the ground but it's very effective. However, this requires that he didn't have a very tight hug and you have relatively more time (by distractions or whatever) to fish for his arm. Again it may not be idea for the street situation but it has lots of great followups; so it is IMHO the most fun to play with.

3) There is a "traditional" kung fu way found in the opening sequence of Gongliquan (Conditioning fist). It is to quickly elbow the crook of the elbow (the inside) of the opponent perferrably on the side that his leg blocking is. This would loosen up the grip especially when the right point on the crook of the elbow is hit. The followup in the form is to extend your arm over your head and backwards grabbing his neck and throw him over. This I believe is what the Shuai Chiao folks call "bowing". The problem with this is that you will need tons of practice to make it perfect. It is not the one minute self defense trick thing. But that's kung fu for you.

Depending on the situation you don't have to combine the elbow break with the throw.

4) You could also do stomp the blocking in step and back kick to the groin. But then your arms are outside so this is not really ideal for distance and control. so the move may not be very effective. I am not sure if side stepping and hammer fist to the groin would work in this case since he is sticking close and his arms are in the way unlike the other way which he has your arms within his hug.

Just a few thoughts to share.

Mantis108

**soundofwater** · 01-07-2004, 12:49 PM

"As soon as he grabs you, sink your weight. take your left foot and place it behind him. you will of course have to do this before he traps one of your legs. bend forward, grabbing his legs behind the knees and stand up, twisting to the left with your waist as you do so."

Could you clarify this move? When you move your left foot and place it behind him do you mean a slight movement to the inside then behind hooking with the front of your ankle to the back of his ankle (or from the outside hooking his ankle the same way) or do you mean bring your whole leg all the way around behind him?

If the latter (bringing entire leg around so that you are now "behind" him), this is very difficult (impossible) when faced with a strong hug and very little time.

If the former, it isn't clear to me how you would grab both of his legs and twist him backwards.

**soundofwater** · 01-07-2004, 01:06 PM

"here's another.

thrust your hips backward into his stomach, creating some space. Bend foward, grab one of his legs and stand up, yanking his leg out from under him. once he's on the gounrd, kick him, run, etc."

The old Fred Flintstone move, eh? I did manage to pull this off one time when I was 11 against my 9 year old brother on a concrete floor and got a good whuppin' from my dad since I gave my brother a concussion.

I have tried this as an adult with adults who are bigger and usually can't seem to lean forward to grab the leg because of the grip and the almost immediate pull backwards and downwards, since it is a "sacrifice" style takedown.

This is the "best" solution I have seen so far, though. Structurally, however, it doesn't seem reliable enough to pull off.

**soundofwater** · 01-07-2004, 01:15 PM

"Well, here's my take:

There are a few things you can try as followed.

1) Rolling knee bar would be the first thing that comes to mind. But it takes more practice and may or may be suitable for street defense. In a sport situation, it is most ideal.

2) There is also a way to do an arm bar from that position as well as taking the guy to the ground. You don't have to go to the ground but it's very effective. However, this requires that he didn't have a very tight hug and you have relatively more time (by distractions or whatever) to fish for his arm. Again it may not be idea for the street situation but it has lots of great followups; so it is IMHO the most fun to play with.

3) There is a "traditional" kung fu way found in the opening sequence of Gongliquan (Conditioning fist). It is to quickly elbow the crook of the elbow (the inside) of the opponent perferrably on the side that his leg blocking is. This would loosen up the grip especially when the right point on the crook of the elbow is hit. The followup in the form is to extend your arm over your head and backwards grabbing his neck and throw him over. This I believe is what the Shuai Chiao folks call "bowing". The problem with this is that you will need tons of practice to make it perfect. It is not the one minute self defense trick thing. But that's kung fu for you. Depending on the situation you don't have to combine the elbow break with the throw.

4) You could also do stomp the blocking in step and back kick to the groin. But then your arms are outside so this is not really ideal for distance and control. so the move may not be very effective. I am not sure if side stepping and hammer fist to the groin would work in this case since he is sticking close and his arms are in the way unlike the other way which he has your arms within his hug.

Just a few thoughts to share.

Mantis108"

1) This takes you down with him, so doesn't qualify

2) As you state, won't work against strong, motivated grip, and takes too long

3) This would be "upper body control leg blocking" in SC, but the caveat is that his head in buried in your back to avoid being elbowed and it is very difficult to get your arm over and around his neck quickly enough, especially before going down since he is sacrificing, and often cannot be done at all (try it!

)

4) Any striking, of which you would only get one at best, still will probably not prevent the "sacrifice" throw to the ground, and violates the premise of not going down with him.