realistic defense vs. drag down bear hug

[SevenStar]

yeah, I can clarify. Actually, I just found a site that has all of the things I mentioned and also a variation of the "bowing" technique that was mentioned. It's a US hand to hand manual. Scroll down to the bear hgug defense section. He doesn't twist his waist the way that I do, but you will get the idea.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_FM21-150d_1000.htm

[MantisifuFW]

Greetings,

I have enjoyed this topic both because of the subject under consideration, (takedowns of any kind), and for the construction of the argument presented by it's originator.

Please understand, I was teaching throwing and Dae Tong, (Chinese Groundfighting), twenty years ago when karateka and thai boxers laughed at me so I am a fan and an advocate of exactly the kinds of tactics under consideration and fully endorse their effectiveness in the right setting. So, my comments are not intended to disparage anyone on any side of this discussion.

a) The argument has been framed that the grappler has gotten into prefect position for the takedown without the Tanglang practitioner being able to even take a step. At the same time the presenter says that the grappler is not held by the same rules, to quote:

"Also, no multiple move techniques which require the attacker to stand by idly while you work him over". Exactly what the presented arguement requires the Tanglang practitioner to do.

b) The argument continues that the Tanglang practitioner cannot talk about the difficulty of getting someone into this perfect takedown position, ala Shamrock punching Gracie (the ultimate grappler in his day), in the eye with a single clumsy and arguably weak punch that nonetheless reduced the grappling legend to clinging ineffectively to his opponent for the rest of the match and thanking god the Shamrock did not continue the pummeling with close range strikes.

c) Notwithstanding the proven effectiveness of such a single even poorly executed strike the arguement comes to the conclusion the originator had in mind in the beginning concerning the effectiveness of whatever strikes the Tanglang practitioner would make. :

"Any striking, of which you would only get one at best, still will probably not prevent the "sacrifice" throw to the ground... "

Now to my response to the technique:

It is an excellent takedown and one that I teach but is not the best version of it from a tactical point of view. It requires that I pin both arms, get my head braced into the back and block his ankle before I effect my throw. The perfect timing and effort required for this to work is far too difficult against a good fighter.

When I have used similar takedowns I did not even pin the arms. The takedown does not require this to be effective. I just get my arms around the waist of the opponent as I slip beneath his punch for example, hide my head for a split second in the small of the other's back and use my forward leg to block both of his heels as I fall to the ground and moved immediately into finishing techniques, (either choke, dislocation or striking).

This question being set forth here could be done with any throw or takedown and could be asked, "If an opponent is:

1. able to move into perfect position to effect a throwing technique (insert any kind) and...

2. has stabilized his position to the degree necessary for his technique to work well,...

3. has either effectively blocked the opponent's ability to maneuver, (or has already broken the opponent's balance)...

4. and done everything possible to minimize his vulnerablity to counters,...

can he be defeated?"

Provision 1:
Oh, also in the split second left to the opponent has to strike from a disadvantaged position, we assume already that it will not be effective.

Just in case though, as further help for the grappler...

Provision 2:
Also, you cannot fight from the ground even if you both fall down because the grappler slips on a bananna peal that he did not see at the ATM, falls before he is ready and hits his head on the concrete because he will also fall perfectly and not be injured even if he weighs 120lbs and the person that falls on top of him is a muscular 240lbs because he will finish the monster with "excellent groundwork".


The question is does a correctly executed takedown work?

The answer is, yes.


Most techniques of real martial systems can work if they are set up properly.

A great topic soundofwater. I look forward to more technical discussions!

Steve Cottrell

[18elders]

i agree with BTL, your not going to do anything on your feet if he tackles you the same time as he gets the hug on you. Why rule out going to the ground?? It is like being sucker punched, your not going to block it but you better react to the next move.

[soundofwater]

Originally posted by SevenStar
yeah, I can clarify. Actually, I just found a site that has all of the things I mentioned and also a variation of the "bowing" technique that was mentioned. It's a US hand to hand manual. Scroll down to the bear hgug defense section. He doesn't twist his waist the way that I do, but you will get the idea.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_FM21-150d_1000.htm

Thanks for the visual reference. Although some of these moves are a bit unrealistic or can be easily countered, the ankle grab warrants additional review.

[soundofwater]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Greetings,

I have enjoyed this topic both because of the subject under consideration, (takedowns of any kind), and for the construction of the argument presented by it's originator.

Please understand, I was teaching throwing and Dae Tong, (Chinese Groundfighting), twenty years ago when karateka and thai boxers laughed at me so I am a fan and an advocate of exactly the kinds of tactics under consideration and fully endorse their effectiveness in the right setting. So, my comments are not intended to disparage anyone on any side of this discussion.

a) The argument has been framed that the grappler has gotten into prefect position for the takedown without the Tanglang practitioner being able to even take a step. At the same time the presenter says that the grappler is not held by the same rules, to quote:

"Also, no multiple move techniques which require the attacker to stand by idly while you work him over". Exactly what the presented arguement requires the Tanglang practitioner to do.

b) The argument continues that the Tanglang practitioner cannot talk about the difficulty of getting someone into this perfect takedown position, ala Shamrock punching Gracie (the ultimate grappler in his day), in the eye with a single clumsy and arguably weak punch that nonetheless reduced the grappling legend to clinging ineffectively to his opponent for the rest of the match and thanking god the Shamrock did not continue the pummeling with close range strikes.

c) Notwithstanding the proven effectiveness of such a single even poorly executed strike the arguement comes to the conclusion the originator had in mind in the beginning concerning the effectiveness of whatever strikes the Tanglang practitioner would make. :

"Any striking, of which you would only get one at best, still will probably not prevent the "sacrifice" throw to the ground... "

Now to my response to the technique:

It is an excellent takedown and one that I teach but is not the best version of it from a tactical point of view. It requires that I pin both arms, get my head braced into the back and block his ankle before I effect my throw. The perfect timing and effort required for this to work is far too difficult against a good fighter.

When I have used similar takedowns I did not even pin the arms. The takedown does not require this to be effective. I just get my arms around the waist of the opponent as I slip beneath his punch for example, hide my head for a split second in the small of the other's back and use my forward leg to block both of his heels as I fall to the ground and moved immediately into finishing techniques, (either choke, dislocation or striking).

This question being set forth here could be done with any throw or takedown and could be asked, "If an opponent is:

1. able to move into perfect position to effect a throwing technique (insert any kind) and...

2. has stabilized his position to the degree necessary for his technique to work well,...

3. has either effectively blocked the opponent's ability to maneuver, (or has already broken the opponent's balance)...

4. and done everything possible to minimize his vulnerablity to counters,...

can he be defeated?"

Provision 1:
Oh, also in the split second left to the opponent has to strike from a disadvantaged position, we assume already that it will not be effective.

Just in case though, as further help for the grappler...

Provision 2:
Also, you cannot fight from the ground even if you both fall down because the grappler slips on a bananna peal that he did not see at the ATM, falls before he is ready and hits his head on the concrete because he will also fall perfectly and not be injured even if he weighs 120lbs and the person that falls on top of him is a muscular 240lbs because he will finish the monster with "excellent groundwork".


The question is does a correctly executed takedown work?

The answer is, yes.


Most techniques of real martial systems can work if they are set up properly.

A great topic soundofwater. I look forward to more technical discussions!

Steve Cottrell

Not to hit every point, and thanks for the last comment, but I will respond to a couple...

1) Although I was initially unclear, my intention was that the attacker did NOT have the defender's arms pinned and therefore your restatement of the attack is fundamentally what I intended.

2) I wanted to avoid a discussion on whether someone is a good fighter IF he allows someone else to get into this position in the first place, since all of fighting usually results in someone "losing" who didn't plan on it, for whatever reason. I wanted to strictly discuss a countermove, not the worthiness of the participants or the situation that might allow this attack.

3) I agree that a perfectly executed move should work perfectly, but to assume the attacker executes poorly or that one cannot be defeated is not an assumption than I would make for myself (not that you are doing this, either ). BUT, most (all?) moves have a counter move some point during their execution. And, of course, at some time it is too late for any countermove.

And by the same reasoning, a perfect countermove works every time! So, since it is impossible to judge the fitness and skill level of the participants, and for training's sake, I always assume a faster, stronger, more skilled attacker in perfect position and try to determine, technically, what single move I might make to continue the fight with me still in it.

4) I am not against going to the ground, it is just one more step in the fight process which, as the defender, I may not want someone to force me into for various situational reasons.

Thanks for a great response on this topic!

[mickey]

Hello soundofwater,


1- sink to give yourself time

2- grab the fingers(1 or 2) of his left hand with your righthand and hyperextend them.

3- twist them counterclockwise while circling your left arm undeer his left. Your body should naturally turn with this.

4- continue to circle the arm under until the opponents arm is folded upward into an inverted V -- careful if your partner is tight this can dislocate. Your should be standing behind your opponent now.

5- Grab his throat with your left hand (still under his arm)and rip.

Time allowed to execute once fingers are hyperextended and twisting-- less than 1 second.

I hope this helps,

mickey

[soundofwater]

Originally posted by mickey
Hello soundofwater,


1- sink to give yourself time

2- grab the fingers(1 or 2) of his left hand with your righthand and hyperextend them.

3- twist them counterclockwise while circling your left arm undeer his left. Your body should naturally turn with this.

4- continue to circle the arm under until the opponents arm is folded upward into an inverted V -- careful if your partner is tight this can dislocate. Your should be standing behind your opponent now.

5- Grab his throat with your left hand (still under his arm)and rip.

Time allowed to execute once fingers are hyperextended and twisting-- less than 1 second.





I hope this helps,

mickey

My experience with this is that if you try to sink your weight you 1) may not sink very far if the person is strong and wants to pick you up or hold you there and 2) it only facilitates his pulling you backwards and down since that is the direction you are already going!

[mickey]

Hi soundofwater,

There is no "ideal" response that will work every time. I thought you were looking for options. The best thing is to get a few partners of different builds and explore the scenario. You may find common elements that may form a template towards developing good technical responses.

mickey

[soundofwater]

Originally posted by mickey
Hi soundofwater,

There is no "ideal" response that will work every time. I thought you were looking for options. The best thing is to get a few partners of different builds and explore the scenario. You may find common elements that may form a template towards developing good technical responses.

mickey

Yes, I was looking for "options" but I have found that many times there is time to train only for the high percentage move, and that it needs to be automated knowledge, i.e. something that can be done to give me more time to execute a subsequent counter or attack.

Perhaps similar to what to do immediately if someone gets you into a choke, for instance. Once you have established a quick position that prevents an immediate loss of the fight, you may have time to execute additional moves to subsequently win it.

So not so much an ideal or "always works" technique, but more of a first response triage move to save the patient!

[mickey]

soundofwater,

Then you would have to get some partners and work on it. That really is the only way. Also, pay attention to your mental state. That alone has saved lives.

Take care,

mickey

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by soundofwater


Perhaps similar to what to do immediately if someone gets you into a choke, for instance. Once you have established a quick position that prevents an immediate loss of the fight, you may have time to execute additional moves to subsequently win it.

That's a different situation. You can grab his arm and pull down to help stop the choke. It's alot harder to stop someone fron taking your balance if they control your center. That said, the things listed here work. Drill them. being able to do them instantaneously is what will be your saving grace.

[Mantis9]

Okay, we have a theoretical fight were I (gasp!) fail in all preventative responses up until the point my opponent is facing my back, arms well wrapped around my trunk, has his face tucked into my back to prevent elbows, headbutts, and any like striking efforts. Also, he's a good technician; bigger and stronger than me.

First of all: ouch! I am a sad, sad man.

Well, this problem (if I've articulated it correctly) presented is looking for a technical solution that hangs its hopes on the idea that I can make a simple initial move without relying on my strength, speed (in the athletic sense), or leverage. However, once I execute this maneuver with theoretical perfection all subsequent maneuvers that I may choose to execute with (why not if we're talking theoretically still) flawlessness can include one, two, or all the uses of strength, speed, and leverage.

Right? I'm I setting up a straw man? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've read this on a few post and believe its the right idea, namely engaging my antagonist's hands and creating space to effectively continue to make my play. Since my opponent position is what it is, he only leaves his arms exposed to engagement. At least, the only part of his body I can engage where I have a chance to effect the outcome or not play into his devices.

So, I shrug my shoulders, curve my back, and push down with both arms directly into the gap of his gripping hands. Also, I attempt to set one foot between his and plant the other in front.

The reasons are as follow:

The shoulder shrug and back curve make an iota of space, creating the possiblity of slip. Pushing down with my arms should , at least, make the hugger's grip more tenuous because his strength is engaged in pulling my trunk to a cinch horizontally and mine is heading vertically. For example, to pull two strong magnets apart, you could try pulling in direct opposition to their force, but it would be much easier to slide them perpendicularly apart. The feet thing is for stability and all gravy, if he hasn't housted me yet.

To tie this in to PM, an alternate 'creative' application from the opening movement of 7*'s Fan Che sets could be the above. That were I referenced the concept from anyway.

Thanks for the opportunity. Be gentle.

Mantis9

[Shadowboxer]

Headbutt and strike the groin immediately when the bear hug has been sensed. Wrap a foot around his and drop your weight by sitting down on that leg trying to break it. You drop your center down (beneath his) and also into him at an angle.
In Aikido, I learned the one seven * referenced that has you step behind quickly and pick them up. It can be done, but you have to practice to make it work. We also practiced just realxing/sinking in response to someone trying to pick you up. It's tricky at first because your natural tendency is to fight it. You can also slip behind with both feet and instead of picking up you trap the foot, then create some body jing with a sharp quick torquing of your hips to disrupt their balance and to create space...add to this striking any openings along the way. How quickly you can move your body with balance was the focus, not moving the other person.
If they control your arms with the bearhug, you can still trap theirs and take a small step forward turn and bow for a hip throw. You have to be under their center though. Shin scrape, foot stomp, headbutt, groin strike are all good for leading his mind for a moment away from what you want to do.

[Merryprankster]

Hand control then hip heist.

The stand-up is the single most effective escape from the bottom of the referee's position in folkstyle (U.S. College/High School) wrestling. What I just said isn't important as it's rife with terminology.

What IS important is that those executing the stand up find themselves in EXACTLY the same position you are describing.

An experienced opponent will use a palm to palm grip to control your hips, with all their fingers together, tight. They will also have their hips in close to you. This allows them to control your hips with body to body pressure in the bear hug. It increases their attack options as well.

Since your assailant requires both grip and hip control to effectively use this attack, it's your job to get rid of it. Otherwise, you are going to have a hard time doing anything. You can choose to eliminate these controls either directly or indirectly. I prefer the direct route, and I do not like pain compliance. Pain compliance is less effective on those who are in an altered state or just plain tough SOB's.

Breaking fingers for instance, won't necessarily force a person to let go. You may just **** them off. Plenty of athletes play hurt. This is no different.

I do not like groin shots/grabs here either. You ever try to grab anything through snug jeans? It's not easy. I don't doubt that it CAN work--however, you're hoping the guy lets go because it hurts. Not my preferred tactic.

1. Get two on one control of his top grip hand. Put one hand on his wrist and squeeze his fingers together with your other hand, hard. This will severely weaken his grip so you can peel it off.

2. Drop your weight. As you drop your weight, you want to push on his hand so his arm is extended and explode your hips out and away from him. This will help with the grip break as it will be your whole body against his grip. When you do this, your upper shoulders/back of the neck area will be leaning on him for support. This slows him down and keeps him from following your hips to try and re-grip.

3. KEEP YOUR GRIP!!! You've isolated one arm now and he will have problems regripping. In the event that you have failed to get your weight on him and he tries to go BACKWARDS so you fall, you're hanging on his arm. Also....

4. You're going to be turning so your chest faces the SAME SIDE as the arm you have as you break the grip. Use your weight on his body as the pivot point to turn on. KEEP YOUR GRIP AND PEEL HIS ARM AWAY. As much of your weight as practicable should be on his arm and it should be as extended as possible. This is going to weight that whole side of his body down, restricting his movement

5. You should be out. You should also have his arm. You have MANY follow-up options from here.

This is just one way, and one I prefer--partly because of my familiarity with it, and partly because I really believe in using tools other than pain compliance to escape these types of situations. I'm not suggesting that other methods DON'T work. I'm just offerring one way that has worked very well for wrestlers--who find themselves in this situation all the time.

And yes, this will work on somebody stronger and bigger than you. Like anything else, you just have to practice it! I was a 160 lbs wrestler in high school and we had a 125 lber who used to stand-up and escape like this from me all the time.

[Knifefighter]

MP has just described in great detail the single most effective escape from this position.