studded armbands

[David Jamieson]

Well, I suppose.

The only pics I've seen of LSW wearing them are the ones from when he was really old. Where he is in the full black outfit, with the armbands and the super wide belt.

It doesn't show him wearing any in any of the illustrations in the books he wrote, though it does show him wearing what appears to be either an iron ring or perhaps what could be a jade bracelet.

Considering he is doing kungfu in his own books, I am not so certain that it is a jade bracelet.

As for bracers, they were actually quite common gear amongst bowmen and swordsmen of a wide variety of national armies both chinese and non chinese.
A standard thing to wear. Usually a bowman would only wear one bracer on the arm that held the bow. But swordsmen wore them on both arms.

Anyway, it's not important. They are bracers and they are handy dandy for swordwork and archery. They keep the wrist firm as well and the studs add to the sword strike the leather strap could take.

I am not certain they are only found in Hung Gar of Lam Jo family, I am pretty certain I have seen the Chiu's wearing them in the occasional pic.

cheers

[Eddie]

Thank you everyone for the info. This is a nice topic, and from the many different replies, it’s nice to read everyone’s opinions.

Kung Lek, I can see the value of the armband as part of armour for protection (very similar to the stuff Roman and European armies wore). I can also see it being used as some type of weapon, I am thinking CLF now, and think I can seriously hurt someone with a biu jong or been choy while wearing them.

And the ctoepkers explanation also makes sense.

Part two of this question then, is if those bands are for armour (lets assume), why the waist band? It’s a pretty thick band, would it not hinder movement for hip rotation etc ?

These bands look pretty cool too. During the 80’s similar bands were popular amongst the punk subculture (purely fashion) and they seem to have a comeback in modern ‘alternative’ sub culture fashions – maybe one day people will start wearing kung fu clothing as part of their rave outfits - just kidding.

Once again, thanks for the replies.

[David Jamieson]

From your solar plexus to your pubis mons all the way around you to your back is an area of extreme weakness. there is no bone protection and the whole area is a huge soft spot. Even if you work out like a madman and build you abs and rhomboids as hard as they can be, they would still provide insuffucient protection to the bowels and kidneys, spleen and with age, any organ that falls below the protective rib cage.

A belt of protection for the area protects the bowels and those organs that are not covered with bone.

So, again, the belt is for support and again it is a type of light armour. It provides a firmness to the areas where employed and a form of protection from any incoming offensive to vary degrees.

Sort of an improvisational Iron body

cheers

[ctoepker]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
As for bracers, they were actually quite common gear amongst bowmen and swordsmen of a wide variety of national armies both chinese and non chinese.
A standard thing to wear. Usually a bowman would only wear one bracer on the arm that held the bow. But swordsmen wore them on both arms.

Anyway, it's not important. They are bracers and they are handy dandy for swordwork and archery. They keep the wrist firm as well and the studs add to the sword strike the leather strap could take.

I am not certain they are only found in Hung Gar of Lam Jo family, I am pretty certain I have seen the Chiu's wearing them in the occasional pic.

Perhaps it isn't that important...but I am very curious about how you arrived at this conclusion. The info I've seen shows that the equipment in the armies was very different from the wrist bands in question.

As for the Chius...they are a good case in point. They are Lam lineage (the difference of opinion is only whether Lam Sai Wing or Lam Cho) and looking at available photos, the bands weren't added until later...as in when they began teaching in the US and found the fashion was becoming, well, fashionable.

As for armor, its uses and effectiveness, I suggest looking into the Battle of Wisby (read: "Visby"). Archeology tells us that armor was pretty good at preventing cuts, slashes and stabs (as suggested here) and that for the most part soldiers died from things like broken bones (e.g. skulls). There is plenty of archeology from China to support conclusions based on Wisby, but Chinese is required. I'd be happy to point out some resources.

To get a good idea on what armor was like in English, try the Osprey Military series. Chris Peers also goes into some info on important info like organizational issues, important battles, etc. Short little books with good info...the make a good start.

Osprey Military Publishing

Imperial Chinese Armies (for the bulk of the Qing, or the most recent period of cold steel)

Civil War Armies(for info on the rapid change over to firearms...the death of armor as it was known)

Ou Ji,
Perhaps the gim is sharp and for cutting, but it was for reasons like this that the jian (gim) was given up as standard soldiering equipment long, long ago. It remained as a ceremonial weapon, and to a certain degree for duels, but was easily foiled by armor. So, maybe you're right...but it doesn't explain the wristband thing at all. For example...why don't all kung fu players wear them if it is useful? Why just Hung Gar people?


Sincerely,
CT

[GeneChing]

You'll see studded Vambraces and Belts throughout China, althoug mostly in the South and Mongolia. As for it's usage as armor, here we should first distinguish between military and personal armor. Our modern military and police sport bullet proof plates and kevlar. But a lot of people I know on the streets wear studded leather. You don't have to go to very many mosh pits before you understand it's usefulness. Another validation - just look up vambrace in the dictionary.

Personally, I always wore leather when I used to lion dance. The belt and the vambraces gave me a little extra external compression, not unlike the bangtui (leg wraps) that Shaolin monks wear, or even modern a neoprene support or a weightlifter's belt. It also helped protect my main points of contact with the lion head, my wrists and waist. So they were really practical for me in this regard. Perhaps thats another reason they rose to such prominence in Hung Gar, given it's connection to lion dance.

[ctoepker]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You'll see studded Vambraces and Belts throughout China, althoug mostly in the South and Mongolia. As for it's usage as armor, here we should first distinguish between military and personal armor. Our modern military and police sport bullet proof plates and kevlar. But a lot of people I know on the streets wear studded leather.

Last item first...there is no question that these things provide support. Indeed, it was apparently this support (because of injury) that LSW sported them in the photos.

Second...I don't believe there was a civil armed force (e.g. police) seperate from the military in the era we're talking about. So, what do you mean when you refer to police equipment?

As for personal armor...I suppose some people did wear them. Certainly it would be hard to show they didn't. However, it is equally hard to show they did.

I have yet to see many photographs of martial artists of LSW's era or before wearing the item in question. Using art (drawings, painting, sculptures...the best references extant) for eras before photography, it is also a very rare find.

I would really like to know how the conclusion is reached that the use of arm bands as a personal armor choice that was made for many in or before the 1800s. (Not 'cause I'm trying to be smarty pants, either...I really am curious. :-) )

Sincerely,
CT

[ursa major]

Originally posted by ctoepker
Sure, they are bracers. But that is not the main explanation of its prominence among Hung Gar teachers today.

If you look at Hung Gar players over time, the bracer isn't sported until after LSW, and only by him in a very few series of photos. However, it shows up prominently (for example) in the first crop of US sifus. Why? One likely explanation is that they were very impressed with their historical roots, looked to LSW as a touchstone, saw the pictures and tried to emulate them in the absense of any other context. In any case, take a look at some historical photos...try to find bracers in Hung Gar just two generations ago, then three. Here's a site to get you started (http://www.hungkuen.com/gallery.htm)

As for armor...if it was that useful and prevelant, why isn't it part of the standard kit in the army? No Qing troops I know used it, nor Ming, etc. Likewise, if it were so useful as protection in street fighting why wouldn't other styles, especially southern styles (like CLF, Wing Chun, etc.) wear them too? I have never come across anyone but Hung Gar or HG influence people wearing them.

The best explanation is that it not much more than fashion because it is peculiar to Hung Gar, and can also be traced back to a certain, albeit unwitting, "fashion statement" by LSW.

Is that clearer?

CT

Much clearer thx.

My HG Sifu used to wear fore-arm and waist protection. The leather was always polished and shiny never a stud out of place... looked awefully intimidating so served a purpose. I know he didn't like to wear them when demonstrating forms they got in the way...

About military use, just curious the effect of leather strapped to you in inclement weather say a downpour of rain?

regards,
UM.

[David Jamieson]

About military use, just curious the effect of leather strapped to you in inclement weather say a downpour of rain?

in inclement weather, you find shelter, or get wet.

there is no single solution to the issue of weather.
If it gets' too tight, loosen it, to lose tighten it. Wetness will not change the degree of protection too much.

cheers

[red5angel]

I've found that leather boots that get wet will shrink unless you keep them on as they dry out. If they dry out while you are wearing them sometimes they even fit better!

[GeneChing]

Alright, you actually got me to crack open a few books. Good on you.

I've found plenty of examples of studded armor, particularly during the Qing era, although it was studs on cloth - what appear to be silks, canvas duct and hemp. I've found references to leather armor, but that's pretty standard for every culture. In China, that goes way back. And I've found a few references to vambraces. That seems to go back far too - I've heard a theory that vambraces are most useful with chariot warfare, but I can't remember where I heard that now. Perhaps it had something to do with the whips or reigns, but that's hearsay at this point. I've yet to find any studded leather vambraces specifically. Seems like quite a technicality given the other examples, but I suppose one ought not to assume here. I'll keep looking when I can.

[Ironwind]

The percefct defensive and offensinve weapons, the studded armbraces.