Jessie Glover iinterview part one

[curtis]

Introduction

Jesse Glover was Bruce Lee's first student and is considered by some as being Bruce Lee's greatest student. Although many years have passed since his days of training with Bruce Lee, Jesse is still regarded by many as being an extremely powerful authority in the field of modern martial arts. Skip Ellsworth (a well known original Bruce Lee student), has not only described Jesse Glover as "Bruce Lee's best student" but he has gone even further by saying:

"When it comes to Jesse Glover, I'm in awe of the guy. For one thing, I've seen the best fighters in the world, and I've never seen anybody better than Jesse -- except for Bruce Lee, of course."

"But even more important than Jesse's skills as a fighter, he embodies all of the excellent character traits that should be part of everyone's martial arts philosophy. He is totally honest, ethical, courageous, loyal, patient, forgiving, forthright, modest, and direct. He is also extremely intelligent, well-educated, and well-read. You can trust this guy with your life."

"At this time, if I have a 'hero' in the martial arts field, it is Jesse Glover." ( www.premier1.net/~loghouse/testimony.html)






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David: When you turned up for your very first ever martial arts lesson with Bruce Lee, what was the very first thing that he taught you?

Jesse: During the first lesson that I had with Bruce he showed some Tai Chi, some Hung Gar, and some Wing Chun. The first part of the first form, one handed sticking and straight punching.

David: In a previous interview you were quoted as saying "I am not a JKD guy". Although this was merely a fleeting comment you made, it comes as a surprise to many of us who recognise you as being one of the few people who undoubtedly trained with Bruce Lee for a prolonged period of time. What are you reasons for declaring that you are not a JKD guy?

Jesse: I am not a JKD man because I don't do what JKD people do. When I was training with Bruce he was still using a lot of Wing Chun mixed with other things. What he was calling his stuff at the time was "Jun Fan". When I told Bruce that I wanted to teach he said it was okay as long as I didn't call what I was teaching either Jun Fan or Wing Chun. In terms of JKD, Bruce was doing a form called the Jeet Kune. Later he took the name of this form and the word "do" for way and named his method after this. I have seen many JKD people and what they do isn't what I do, so I don't consider myself either doing JKD or being a JKD practitioner.

David: Did Bruce Lee have any favourite moves or favourite techniques that he used to focus on when you trained with him?

Jesse: Bruce's favourite techniques were closing, punching and the backfist.

David: techniques such as "Chi Sao" and "Lap Sao" clearly take a considerable length of time to master. This is in stark contrast to more simplistic moves like knee kicks and finger jabs- both of which are simple and can be learned more quickly. Does this mean that the "stickinghands" techniques are not in line with the fundamental Jeet Kune Do principles of being direct and simple?


Jesse: I would question if anything in martial arts can be learned simply. Before one can be effective with a kick to the knee one has to first develop an effective kick. An effective kick requires a certain level of speed, power and follow through. These are the basics that must be developed just to have a kick let alone the range and the timing that is required to ensure that it arrives at the target with adequate force at the right time to stop an attacker. If you look at the kicks that Bruce was doing later in his life they were kicks that could break a leg, not just something that might bounce off and merely anger a tough opponent.

In the case of fingerjabs it takes quite a bit of practice to develop a good fingerjab against both a static and a moving target. Next we have the reluctance of many people to attack an opponent's eyes in a fight. When you talk about direct and simple you had better be talking about good speed, accuracy, timing, power and the ability to follow up with a continuing attack.

Stickinghands is not a JKD technique but it works a heck of a lot better than preprogrammed techniques that can be offset by unpredictable moves. It is easy to see that boxers who train with punching much more than most martial arts sometimes throw patterns of punches that don't fit the situation. They have been conditioned to throw these punches in sequence even when the target is no longer where it would
have to be in order for these punches to be effective.

David: So, how long would it take the average guy on the street to become proficient at "stickinghands"?

Jesse: I can't really comment on classical stickinghands because I don't do it. The basics of Non-Classical stickinghands can be learned and applied in a real situation after a few months of practice.

David: Staying on the subject of training in specific fighting techniques…so far I have failed to find an abundance of evidence that verifies that Bruce Lee focussed intensively on groundwork and grappling. Did he?

Jesse: Bruce did practice chokes,pins and armlocks and wristlocks when I knew him.

David: Many Jeet Kune Do clubs spend a great deal of time and energy learning Filipino martial arts styles such as Kali, Arnis and Eskrima. Based on what you have observed, how much time did Bruce Lee spend focussing on the development of Filipino martial arts styles such as the ones I have mentioned?

Jesse: From what I can tell Bruce didn't do Filipino martial arts. Let me also say that in a fight with a top Eskrima, Bruce wouldn't have necessarily been the one to win. There are some of these men who can move as quickly as Bruce with a knife in their hand.

David: A few critics have said that what Bruce Lee taught in the early years was simply "modified Wing Chun". How would you respond to this?

Jesse: I think that what Bruce did teach was modified Wing Chun. I also think that if you know what to look for, the case can be made that many of the principles of JKD have a Wing Chun frame work.


Early Seattle School Class Photo
Top Row (from left to right): Jesse Glover, Bruce Lee, Skip Ellsworth & Tak Miyabe
Bottom Row (from left to right): Jim DeMile, LeRoy Garcia, & Taky Kimura

David: Bruce Lee is reported to have been able to do a wide range of almost superhuman feats. Some of these amazing feats are well documented and verified (such as the one inch punch and two finger push ups), but other feats are less well documented as seem less believable (such as Bruce Lee being able to allegedly finger jab through an unopened can of Coke, for example). What is the most impressive "superhuman" feat that you've ever witnessed Bruce Lee pull-off?

Jesse: I never saw Bruce do any super human things of any kind. He was amazing in his sticking and his speed of movement but he wasn't super human.

David: Are the Bruce Lee martial arts films in any way a good representation of how Bruce Lee would have fought in real life?

Jesse: In a real fight Bruce would have gone straight to the target, particularly in his later life. When he had the fight in Seattle where I was the referee he waited for his attacker to make the first move. As he matured he came to think more and more of carrying the fight to the attacker instead of waiting. I have heard that when Bruce sparred with a few people he got hit. This is not something that he would have later risked in a fight.

[curtis]

this is part two of the interveiw

David: Who, in your opinion, is the greatest Jeet Kune Do practitioner on the planet today?

Jesse: Words like "greatest" don't mean much to me. The ones who I know who are really good are Ted Wong, Howard Williams and Tommy Carruthers. I am sure that there are others but these are the ones that I have seen. Ted excells in kicking, timing and footwork. He is very very hard to hit when he is moving. Howard is a very fast and a very powerful kicker and puncher who can also move well. When Tommy is on he reminds me of Bruce when I knew him. Once his arm is moving he is close to Bruce in (terms of) speed. Tommy has more of a telegraph than Bruce had but he so quick that it is almost impossible to read and react to. In terms of punching power I think that Tommy might hit a little harder than Bruce could hit. Tommy is also a very good kicker who can generate a lot of power. In the legs he is more flexible than Bruce was but not quite as powerful.




Jesse Glover in action with Bruce Lee

Jesse demonstrates a kung fu form
while Skip Ellsworth waits his turn.



David: What was Bruce Lee's attitude towards official grading systems and formal uniforms?

Jesse: When I first met Bruce he was strongly against rankings of any kind. This was one of the things that angered him about the way that Wing Chun was taught. He said that people had to be involved in the system for a certain length of time before they would be taught certain things regardless of the ability that they displayed. For the first few years that I knew him, he talked poorly about ranks of any kind and said that they seldom reflected the true skill of a person. When he started to structure a system he realized that in order for it to be successful that it would have to involve uniforms and rankings. These are the things that seem to attract most people to martial arts. They want visual proof of where they stand in relationship to other people. The sad thing about this is that there will always be people with a lot of natural talent who will be able to move better than people who have been training for years. In today's world where ranks are often connected to the teacher's ability to earn a living many people are given rankings that don't really mean much in terms of the skills that they have.

I think that a lot of people think that everyone starts out with the same equipment and can achieve the same amount of progress in the same given the same amount of practice. A quick review of any good book on physiology will show otherwise even if we just talk about fast twitch vs slow twitch muscles. The amount of each of these that a person inherits will determine how far a person's body can develop in different physical activities. Someone with a lot of fast twitch muscles isn't going to do well in activities that require a lot of endurance and someone with a lot of slow twitch muscles isn't going to do well in physical activities that require short burst of speed.

In the striking arts, the faster that one can move the hands and the feet the more force that can be transmitted. While it is true that everyone can learn to move relatively quick in some ways, they often would be better off doing things that are more in line with their physical skills. They might be better at a grappling art. Another thing that often happens is that there is quite a difference between the speed of a person's upper body and a person's lower body in terms of speed of movement. One has but to look at the art of Judo where one can see people who are good at hand techniques, arm techniques, hip techniques or leg techniques. Most of the people who are good at Judo favor the use of techniques from one of these groups of techniques in their attacks. Few people are good in all of these areas. There are also people who are good at standing techniques and people who are good at grappling techniques. Usually people favor one of these areas and seldom are they equal in both areas.

Anyway, I always keep the first things that Bruce said about rank and how it didn't mean a lot in the forefront of my mind. When I was a first degree brownbelt, I competed in the Judo nationals. I played against a man who was a third degree blackbelt and the then current all-marine corp Judo champion. I threw him and won with ippon. According to the idea of rank being the true measure of a person's skill this wasn't supposed to happen. During the same period I threw many other Blackbelt's who out ranked me. In today's world ranks often don't say very much about a person's skill but in order to have a successful martial arts school where the teacher is required to pay a lot for a space and has to also earn a living giving ranks and having people wear uniforms is in most cases a must.


A more recent photo of Jesse in action


David: I am particularly interested in what you were saying about fast and slow twitch fibres. I'm speaking on a more personal level here as I think I am a textbook example of a guy whose body is overwhelmed with slow twitch fibres. (I then told Jesse about how I used to do a lot of competitive long distance running) ...Although I think I've got quite strong legs, my upper body strength is virtually negligible and my hand speed is naturally very slow.

So, bearing in my what you've said, do you believe that every person should carefully consider their own physical attributes before they commit themselves to learning a particular style of martial arts?

Jesse: Even though you have a lot of slow twitch muscles it is possible for you to develop a fairly quick punch, kick and close. There are a series of exercises that I teach that give people with a lot of slow twitch muscles the ability to move quick. Through mass repetitions it is possible to get quite fast. What I am saying is that you might never get as fast as someone with a lot of quick twitch muscles who devotes the same amount of time to practice. One of the focus points of Non-Classical Gung Fu is the development of upper body strength. Even students with slow twitch muscles develop effective speed over time once they have developed this upper body strength.

While you may never become another Bruce lee you can become a very good David and that is the best that you can do. If you do what you can to make the maximization of your ability to move possible you can find yourself becoming better than 90% of the practicing martial artists. I don't know you but I would think that you have certain things working in your favor. One is that you know what it is like to have trained hard at something, most people don't. (Jesse then went on and talked about some other things which may work in my favour, but I have decided not to upload this particular chunk of information because it relates specifically to me and may not be of interest to everyone else)

Jesse: There are different ways to use the muscles of the body that can make your movements a lot quicker than you think they can be. If you spend most of your time training the muscles groups of your body that allow you to move well you will get a lot better than you think that you can become. In a broad sense I think that people should look around for an art that better suits them but from what you have told me about you, you can develop well in the areas of closing, striking and kicking.

David: I think it's bad practice for any interviewer to include himself in the questions, however, I think what you've said will definitely give hope to the many people out there who, like myself, aren't naturally fast or powerful.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Jesse: You're welcome!

(The above interview was carried out by David Connelly. Interview date: 4th March 2003)

NOTE: some of the pictures on this page are originally from other websites. Their URL's are http://www.premier1.net/~loghouse/testimony.html
and http://www.gungfuinstitute.com



Epilogue by David: Before conducting the interview with Jesse Glover, I had never met nor communicated with Jesse in any way shape or form. I have never attended any Jesse Glover seminars and I am not a member of any club or organisation which is in any way associated with Jesse Glover. After the interview, I offered to give Jesse a link to his website and I asked if he wanted me to specifically mention any event, organisation or project that he was involved in. He was not interested in my offer.


Many thanks go to Jesse Glover for his participation!

email: info@bruceleecentral.com | © copyright 2002 bruceleecentral.com all rights reserved

[PaulH]

It's strange that decent man got so little recognitions on their own home forum. I like this Jessie Glover's interview - very open, informative, straighforward and honest. Thanks for making it available.

Regards.
PH

[Vash]

Very good read. Also, very revealing about the style of Jeet Kune Do . . .