Acupuncture Study

[dwid]

i cannot measure or quantify such intangibles as love or hate, nor can i deny their existence..

You also wouldn't want to rely on a consistent dose of one or the other to keep you alive.

Things like love and hate don't need to be quantified. Things like penicillin do.

I would consider myself very moderate in comparison to Castleva, or to you or Repulsive Monkey for that matter, but to argue that there's no point in attempting to quantify something being passed off as medicine does nothing to support its validity as such.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Things like love and hate don't need to be quantified. Things like penicillin do.

Why? Why not?

Again, you adjust the game to fit your desires.. if penicillin should be quantified, why shouldn't Love or hate?.. Could it be that it negates the arguement?

The most compelling arguement for the intangibles is the vast numbers of returning practitioners and testimonials.. if it works, why deny it because of lack of quantifiable proof.. just accept the evidence (testimonials) and give it an unprejudiced try..

I'll move on now.. weary from the cries of sterile science, the real world beckons.. the real world where the mystery is also the magic..

Be well..

[Former castleva]

" FC knows his own truth.. so be it. his redundant lapse into meaningless "strawman" or "red herring" comments is simply the blinders that limit his own vision of a grander universe.. leave him be, he has a right to his opinions.. too much time is wasted describing the elephant to the blind man.."


If you are to argue,bring up a logical argument.

" i cannot measure or quantify such intangibles as love or hate, nor can i deny their existence.. "

We are talking about medicine,not emotions.

"Of course acupuncture works.. and i don't need proof to convince me of it, my evidence is firsthand.. of course Qigong works, my evidence is firsthand.. FC's rejection of such notions is premised on constrained procedures, and evidence manipulated by others"

Do keep in mind that not everyone is impressed without this proof.When you make statements like the one above (constrained procedures etc.),you may be expected to back them up.

"more likely, such narrow-minded perspectives will not diminish the benefits of Qigong or acupuncture.. too many other topics worthy of mind-play than trying to open the eyes of the self-blinded.."

Why are the perspectives "narrow-minded"? What about "self-blinded"?
Add all loaded terms you wish,but it will not support an argument.In fact,it will only demonstrate your (the you being a general one) inability to produce one.

[dwid]

Again, you adjust the game to fit your desires.. if penicillin should be quantified, why shouldn't Love or hate?.. Could it be that it negates the arguement?

My point, which I think was rather obvious, was that penicillin needs to be quantified because, like many things, not enough of it won't help you and too much will kill you. I'm not trying to tear the magic from your world, I'm simply establishing that it's reasonable for some things to be held to a different standard than others. If the only claim made about qi gong, etc... is that it makes you feel good, then there is no need for further analysis. However, when you start saying that qi gong will significantly extend your life, cure cancer, etc... then it is reasonable to expect some proof to the validity of such claims.

I understand we are coming at this from differing perspectives. Would it surprise you to know that I have learned a variety of qi gongs and still practice some (not as much as I should).

The fact that is quickly apparent here is that many on the spiritual side of the debate are every bit as inflexible as the stodgiest of scientists.

[Former castleva]

"just accept the evidence (testimonials) "

Anecdotal evidence cannot be considered evidence,as far as logic goes.

[Daredevil]

I strongly recommend anyone to get their own proof. What's there to lose (compare with what you have to gain)?

If it happens to work for you, **** the scientific proof. You want the effects, not the causes, anyway.

If you're a scientist looking to advance the field, then by all means seek the proof. Otherwise it's just air coming out of your ass like from any fundamentalist.

[Former castleva]

"If you're a scientist looking to advance the field, then by all means seek the proof. Otherwise it's just air coming out of your ass like from any fundamentalist."

As dwid said,this thread was about scientific proof.

"I strongly recommend anyone to get their own proof. What's there to lose (compare with what you have to gain)?"

Financial losses&loss health-wise is a possibility.

[RAF]

http://groups.msn.com/NeiWaiChiaKung...meridians.msnw

Here is a little piece from that Tom posted on the another site.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/cul...tpp2/frank.pdf , at pp. 24-25 (see p. 22 for Henry Look's recollection of Yu Peng-xi).

[Former castleva]

PubMed´s;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri.../1102/acu.html

[cha kuen]

The only reason people say TCM is all about the mind is because they can't imagine how a needle, or herbs, or chi kung can work. They don't understand it so they make some stupid assumption.


If TCM is all "mental" then western can be mental as well. My friend has headaches all day, her left ear hurts, has a lump on her throat, dry throat and a funny head feeling. She went to her MD's and took many pills for years.....this TOO SHOULD have been the mental effect. After all, she was seeing a "doctor" and paying a lot of money to her pills and cat scans...and taking the pills she HOPES it will work, but ....it didn't.

anyways, there is a main acupucnturist for the SAN DIEGO CHARGERS, TCM getting into the professtional sports. Millionair players being treated by tcm..yes....success.. =]

[Former castleva]

"If TCM is all "mental" then western can be mental as well. My friend has headaches all day, her left ear hurts, has a lump on her throat, dry throat and a funny head feeling. She went to her MD's and took many pills for years.....this TOO SHOULD have been the mental effect. After all, she was seeing a "doctor" and paying a lot of money to her pills and cat scans...and taking the pills she HOPES it will work, but ....it didn't."

Hardly "mental",whether she was helped or not (anecdote).

"anyways, there is a main acupucnturist for the SAN DIEGO CHARGERS, TCM getting into the professtional sports. Millionair players being treated by tcm..yes....success.. =]"

Financial succes for-? Cannot disagree.

[bob10]

Originally posted by Former castleva
[B
Anecdotal evidence cannot be considered evidence,as far as logic goes. [/B]

It seems that it can when the evidence points the "right" way

Taiji masters or similar who die at an early age are conveniently ignored, people that qigong fails to cure are conveniently ignored - or worse still, it is somehow their own fault that the qigong didn't work - people that acupuncture hasn't worked for are conveniently ignored.

Anecdotal evidence works both ways, it seems that whatever belief system you adopt colours how you use the information.

[Former castleva]

I agree.
However,it´s pretty much as worthless both ways.No matter how much of it you gather.

[vikinggoddess]

I don't know if this research is translated into English anywhere, but I saw a video- taped lecture by some Chinese OMD lecturers that was translated into English. I have no way to find out where or when these studies took place, as the library I checked it out from was shut down. But anyway, they did pain tolerence studies on rabits where first they found that acupuncture increased pain tolerence in rabits, second they tranfered the cerebral spinal fluid from these rabits into rabits that received no acupuncture. This second group of rabits had increased pain tolerence, like the first group, with out acupuncture.

A nasty study, admittedly, but it shows that acupuncture acts on the brain at the biochemical level. I was really disapointed a year or 2 ago when the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine proposed nothing about looking to other countrys that are successfully using and researching different types of medicines. I think it would really be great if CAM set up some grants for researchers to go to China and figure out what promising research is going on instead of trying to reinvent the wheel over here. There are plenty of Chinese who obtained their PhD's in the US, who would be able to understand, judge and translate these types of research studies and make some reviews and recommendations.

[RAF]

Angina Pectoris I
by Ballegaard S; Meyer CN; Trojaborg W.
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Homepage | Research Subject Index | Cardivascular


Acupuncture in angina pectoris: does acupuncture have a specific effect?



Journal of Internal Medicine, 1991 Apr, 229(4):357-62.
(UI: 91225644)
Pub type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article; Randomized Controlled Trial.
AT: UCLA Biomed W1 J0674H
(PE title: Journal of internal medicine.)



Abstract: To overcome the methodological problems of blinding the patients and the acupuncturist in acupuncture trials, 33 patients with stable angina- pectoris, who were randomized to either genuine or sham acupuncture, received electroacupuncture by another acupuncturist, and the change in skin temperature was recorded. It was found that the change in skin temperature correlated significantly with the degree of improvement following both genuine and sham acupuncture. Fourteen patients with no decrease in skin temperature exhibited a significantly better response to acupuncture than 19 patients who showed a decrease in skin temperature (G II). In the former group, there was a 15% median improvement in exercise tolerance (G II 0%), a 678 improvement in anginal attack rate (G II 38), and an 84% improvement in nitroglycerine consumption (G Ir 50%). A significant correlation was found between the duration of disease and the effect of acupuncture. It is concluded that both genuine and sham acupuncture have a specific effect on some angina pectoris patients in addition to the effect of pharmacological therapy.


http://acupuncture.com/Research/ResInd-all.htm