Acupuncture Study

[ctoepker]

Earlier in the discussion much was made of the placebo affect and the common notion that 1/3 of placebo control groups get better. This affect is often attributed to the amazing healing power of the mind, etc.

However, recent studies have shown that in fact that notion is a myth.

http://hideinplainwebsite.com/Placebodoc.htm

From the above linked New York Times article
"The investigators analyzed 114 published studies involving about 7,500 patients with 40 different conditions. The report found no support for the common notion that, in general, about a third of patients will improve if they are given a dummy pill and told it is real."

On another point, much has been made of discussion styles. When sections of the discussions are rightly labelled "red herring," etc. the response seems to be a discounting of the very real observations. Does this advance the discussion? It seems as if folks are dismissing a real POV instead of engaging it. In other words, isn't it hypocritical to write someone else's opinion off as hopelessly mired in logic, science, and "western" constraints while standing on similarly mired "eastern" ground?

I see that many people believe this works. Maybe it does. If it does, it seems clear that it works for reasons other than those currently stated. For example, in another thread this article:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm

gives a pretty good outline of the history of one aspect of TCM and its transportation abroad. When one realizes that current understandings of the practices are not connected to the "T" of Traditions at all, the stance is weakened.

Be that as it may, when faced with new information, one cannot simply write it off. Either one's assumptions are wrong or reality is. So far, no one has unduly suffered from examining their assumptions....

CT

[Former castleva]

" Earlier in the discussion much was made of the placebo affect and the common notion that 1/3 of placebo control groups get better. This affect is often attributed to the amazing healing power of the mind, etc.

However, recent studies have shown that in fact that notion is a myth.

http://hideinplainwebsite.com/Placebodoc.htm "

The thing I dislike about articles like that,the article itself being legitimate,is their authoritative note.Yes,it raises points but not enough to convince me that dearly held placebo effect is a "myth".The article was not exactly new (not old) but they´re really raising just as conventional explanations to replace the placebo effect.The important thing is that those explanations (talk about condition´s natural course) has been addressed together WITH placebo,which the document does not let you know.I´d like to see a stance on nosebo.

[Tak]

The most compelling arguement for the intangibles is the vast numbers of returning practitioners and testimonials..

Well, no, this isn't really a good argument at all. This has been used to support every popular religion and cult, as well as every folk remedy, legitimate or not, and wide varieties of financial scams.

[ctoepker]

FCV,

Perhaps you'll like this one better....

http://www.studyworksonline.com/cda/...R1112,00.shtml


Of particular note from the article:

But after nearly 50 years of acceptance, the placebo effect is now being questioned. In a recent paper in the New England Journal of Medicine, Dr. Asbjorn Hrobjartsson and Dr. Peter C. Gotzsche of the University of Copenhagen and Nordic Cochran Center reported the results of their recent study. They reviewed journal articles looking for the original research stating that 35-percent of patients improve if given a placebo. All the papers they looked at did not include original research on the placebo effect but cited a reference. When they looked up the paper being referenced, it cited another reference. It turns out that the original source of the statement was a 1955 article “The Powerful Placebo” published in The Journal of the American Medical Association. The paper was written by Henry Beecher, who had been chief of anesthesiology at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. Dr. Beecher had analyzed about a dozen studies and came up with the 35-percent figure.

I put "Dr. Peter C. Gotzsche placebo" into Google and got all sorts of responses. I'm sure you'll find the "deconstructions" of the work very interesting too.

Example: http://www.hideinplainwebsite.com/Placeboo.html

Later,
CT

[Former castleva]

Thanks.
I have not had the time to drag myself trough those sites so far,I´ll be trying to as soon as possible.

[RAF]

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/arch.../11taichi.html
http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/forums/

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/arch...nov/11mao.html

"Credit for the renaissance should be given to Mao Tse Tung. One of his noted quotations is, "Traditional Chinese medicine is a great treasure. It must be thoroughly studied and elevated to a higher level." "Credit" should also be given to the United States, which has imposed harsh economic sanctions and embargoes against China ever since the Korean War. Without adequate Western medical supplies, China had to rely on TCM and "barefoot doctors" to provide health care to its one billion citizens.

After the Zhou-Nixon summit in 1972, TCM was reintroduced to the West. Its popularity rose quickly. One out of ten adults in the U.S. tried TCM last year, and a number of TCM colleges have been established across the nation. The number of practitioners has increased more than tenfold in the past 20 years. China has played an important role by providing scholars and clinicians to become the backbone of TCM educators and practitioners worldwide. In the U.S., the National Institutes of Health has established the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Its annual budget is now more than $100 million. Some major medical schools have set up offices for integrative medicine. Their larger mission is to integrate Eastern and Western medicine, which China started doing 40 years ago.

To prepare for the integration, TCM curriculum should incorporate more courses of Western clinical and basic science. The length of study should be increased to accommodate the additional training. It will help the graduates to conduct scientific research to find out why and how TCM works. This is important for the advancement and acceptance of TCM, not only by the public, but also the scientific community. Education and research through science are the driving forces for the eventual integration of Eastern and Western medicine. It is possible that one day there will be only one integrative health system, where practitioners of both fields will work side-by-side. "

Willie Mao, PhD, LAc
La Crescenta, California


http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/ask/

[vikinggoddess]

To prepare for the integration, TCM curriculum should incorporate more courses of Western clinical and basic science. The length of study should be increased to accommodate the additional training. It will help the graduates to conduct scientific research to find out why and how TCM works. This is important for the advancement and acceptance of TCM, not only by the public, but also the scientific community. Education and research through science are the driving forces for the eventual integration of Eastern and Western medicine. It is possible that one day there will be only one integrative health system, where practitioners of both fields will work side-by-side.

Integration is important and must occur carefully without preconceived notions to assimilate it into the western biomedical model. Though I do not disagree with that high standards of clinical and western science are valuable for Chinese medicine practitioners, I favor an emphasis on increased training and experience in clinical research philosophy, design and implementation, knowledge of statistics, analysis and presentation of research, professional collaborations, etc. To patients needing effective treatment the most important aspect for integration of Chinese medicine with Western medicine is not explaining things like how qi and acupuncture work at the basic science level but rather clinical studies showing the efficacy of particular treatment methods. I would like to see more a studies like the one by Cardini & Weixin in JAMA "Moxibustion for correction of breech presentation: a randomized controlled trial." Yes, moxa works very well to turn the breech baby, 75%. Every acupuncture student learns this simple treatment protocol. There are so many other long-taught methods that are calling out to be tested. I would like to see more simple practical-application clinical studies like this, coming from a purely Chinese medical perspective.

[ctoepker]

Originally posted by vikinggoddess
Integration is important and must occur carefully without preconceived notions to assimilate it into the western biomedical model. Though I do not disagree with that high standards of clinical and western science are valuable for Chinese medicine practitioners, I favor an emphasis on increased training and experience in clinical research philosophy, design and implementation, knowledge of statistics, analysis and presentation of research, professional collaborations, etc.

VikingGoddess,

I find this perspective most interesting...I too often wonder what the future of science might bring to us. I mean, as a historian I see Chinese medicine as developing and advancing as new information and tools are made available to Chinese scientists. Sadly, trends in TCM these days seem to be to look backwards for validity (e.g. statements often made like "The 'Yellow Emperor's Classic' is a time-tested methodology for cures because it is 5,000 years old.")

I believe that there may be something interesting in TCM outlook, but continuing to view it in isolation from other information and advancements is a mistake. Not only that, it is not a mistake the Chinese themselves made in researching to develop the knowledge to its current state. Perhaps clinical studies are useful.

Simply put, I look forward to a time in the future when both views will have fully informed each other and something new is understood...not 'eastern,' not 'western' but just useful in curing human suffering.

Currently it is my perception that 'Western' medicine is being rather open to investigating TCM claims. However, TCM is being very slow (resistant even) to absorbing cell theory, updated human anatomies, etc. I wonder how that will change if people who bring those issues up are treated as heretical, small minded and generally stuck in a 'backwards' mindset.


Sincerely,
CT

[vikinggoddess]

I understand what you mean about TCM being slow to acknowlege cell theory, etc. Closed mindedness never gets you anywhere no matter what your background though. I think this is probably actually more of an issue with TCM practitioners in the US, who often have had bad experience with biomedicine medicine practice, compared to Chinese TCM doctors who have, from what I understand, full western medical (at least by Chinese standards which I am not familiar with) and Chinese medical training. I don't agree that Western MD's are particularly open to TCM, but rather American patients are open to TCM, though I hope I am wrong about the MDs.

I think that a significant number, if not the majority, of MD's work from the biased assumption that high-tech biomedicine medicine always leads to better outcomes for the patient. This is simply not the case, as we see from the medical literature, for example, that midwifes acheive equally good or better outcomes in home births & birthcenters compared to obstetritions in hospitals. Another problem, actually is the continued belief-driven rather than research driven practices of Medical Doctors. For example, unneccessary episiotomies are still rather standard in hospital births, even though it is coming out that older women who received this procedure are the ones who are now having surgery to repair vaginal & uterine prolapse and urinary incontinence. There are many similar problematic practices related to childbirth at a hospital, for example not allowing women to drink and eat in childbirth, scheduled C-sections, higher C-section rates during the weekends, etc. I recommend the highly researched "The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth" by Professional Labor Support-woman Henci Goer, which gives a lot of insight into problems coming form belief-driven medicine in Obstetrics.

It seems that TCM practitioners and Medical Doctors both can see the bad points of each others medical system. If each profession tried harder to follow through with clinical research and apply of proven clinical research methods, respectively, integration would naturally follow.

[cha kuen]

VKMID,

MD's are only required to study liek 200 hours of chinese medicine to be able to practice. Why? Because MD's rule the world. Many MD's who study TCM for 200 hours get only the very basics, the top 20 points to use.

There is not a set of points to use for this pain and that. It varies person to person, their life style, job, work, excercise, stress, worry, emotion - all of those are addressed in chinese medicine.

ANYWAYS, HERE"S A **** BRIGHT IDEA> Instead of arguing this and that, lets state our OWN experiences.

Former, you are ..17 years old? You need to get some experince or treatment and tell us how that goes for you. Have you ever had TCM treatment? Probably not..


My left shoulder has been fixed by TCM. My chronic neck pain and lower back has been treated and only gotten better with TCM. I've tried MD's and they said nothign is wrong with my neck and that my lower back would NEVER be the same. They told me to stretch and do situps, but that never released any of the pain or stiffness.

I have TMJ as well. MD's and chiropractors told me to get a mouth guard, custom made from a dentist. I did that and I wore it everynight, and it didnt' get any better. I have yet to try TCM for this yet, but the guys I know said that TMJ should go away with meditation or chi kung practice. I recently joined a tai chi classs so i'll update my OWN Experience with that later.



This post marks the end of the B/S of "this artcile says this and that." Lets post our experiences. then theres' no yada yada bull crap.

A friend of mine got into a car accident, after one chi kung treatment, he got all better. My teahcer in hong kong went to see this TCM dude for her long time neck problem. In one treatment, poof, gone! I waqs there to witness it. What else? name some experinces and lets put this arguing to sleep.

[vikinggoddess]

oh, you want some anecdotes...

i don't have allergies/chronic rhinitis (life long problem) anymore since i started following a chinese nutritional diet and taking chinese herbs. the main herb was huang qi/ astragalus + Spleen qi tonics like dan shen, shan yao, etc. took self-prescribed raw-herb formula every day for a few months, and now i just cook up huang qi a couple of times a month.

you want some other anecdotes? one of many... heard of 5 needle protocol ear acupuncture for relief from drug withdrawals. here's a twist: someone called me last week asking if i could teach them over the phone to do ear acupuncture for the girlfriend who was crying desperately in the back ground after having reduced her methadone dosage. ya, right, teach ear acupuncture over the phone. instead i suggested vigorous massage to the ears until they felt hot and were red. this is generally what is experienced by people coming off drugs after the ear acupuncture. turns out the his massage worked very well; she fell asleep right after. he also tried massaging his own ears, but could not achieve the hot/ red effect. thinking i should follow up on this. would be great if self ear massage is as effective as ear acupuncture for drug withdrawals. tempting to try to pull off a ghetto research study. definately no shortage of crack heads around here.

[GeneChing]

I used to teach experimental psychology, so the Placebo effect was a big issue. To me, it was this funny way science described something it couldn't really control, akin to hypnosis. It was the human element.

Now, I do volunteer work for the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic and I use the theory of Placebo effect all the time when working with patients. It doesn't always work, but it works enough time for me to keep using it. It's not like it's a big investment, or that there are even any laws binding it. For example, I specialize in Intense Psychedelic Reaction treatments, and I have often given patients a "pill" to bring them down. That pill has been everything from aspirin to altoids. Now, under a doctor's supervision, we can actually give someone a valium or something, but why waste our precious resources when we have plenty of altoids and the effect is actually better. With valium, the patient may get to sleepy to get home. With altoids, they come down plus have fresh breath to boot!

The problem with science, especially in medicine, is that it's all about sterility. You cannot conduct any experiment without controllling all your variables. And humans are big variables. Science doesn't get down and dirty, on the street level, where the real healing must be done. Now this doesn't mean I reject science by any means. It just means that science is as contextually bound as anything else. If TCM is all faith healing, let me feel the faith. It's cheaper and more ethical.

[vikinggoddess]

Here's some interesting scientific theories from MD Acupuncturist Charles Shang:

http://acupuncture.com/Acup/Mech.htm

[RAF]

The Associated Press

Wednesday, January 14, 2004

Wichita — Recovering stroke patients benefited so much from acupuncture therapy that Wesley Rehabilitation Hospital cut short its study into the benefits of the ancient practice.

Now, acupuncture is offered to all patients who met the study's qualifications.

The small study, which began about two years ago and ended several months ago, was restricted to patients having their first stroke, with no more than six weeks having passed from the onset of symptoms.

Thirty-three patients participated in the study. They were assigned randomly, and 11 didn't get acupuncture. All got the more traditional speech, occupational and physical therapy six days a week.

Ninety percent of the patients who got acupuncture, and 33 percent of those who didn't, were able to go home rather than to another facility after leaving the hospital, said Dr. Blake Veenis, a rehabilitation medicine specialist.

Stroke patients who got acupuncture also showed more improvement toward being able to carry out such tasks as dressing, bathing, grooming, walking and changing position.

Cyndy Miller, director of clinical services at the hospital, said those involved in the study were writing up their research and hoped to have it accepted for publication in a medical journal.
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[RAF]

Acupuncture put under spotlight

Scientists are to investigate whether psychological factors may boost the effectiveness of acupuncture.
A team from the University of Southampton has already shown that acupuncture treatment can reduce chronic neck pain by 60%.

Now they plan to recruit almost 300 patients suffering from hip or knee pain to see if it works for them too.

They also plan to examine whether the relationship the practitioner strikes up with the patient plays any effect.

Some patients will be given a sympathetic, caring consultation, others will be treated rather less empathetically.

The researchers will also investigate whether simply administering needles is enough to trigger an improvement in patients who think they are undergoing acupuncture.

Lead researcher Dr Peter White said his team were particularly interested in the whether the effects of acupuncture could be enhanced if the patient developed a good relationship with the practitioner.

He said: "To some extent, modern based medicine has failed to value this individual and very personal interaction between patient and therapist.

"Perhaps complementary and alternative medicine treatments can present a valuable model design through which we may understand this process."

Ancient theory

According to ancient Chinese medicine, acupuncture works by diverting energy channels that flow through the body.

Dr White said there was no evidence to support this theory, but there was evidence that acupuncture triggered the release of chemicals in the body.

These include serotonin, which plays a role in regulating mood, and endorphins, which are the body's natural painkillers.

Dr White suspects that acupuncture also triggers other, as yet unknown, responses in the body, which may have a physiological or psychological basis.

The three-year project is sponsored by the Department of Health.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...th/3402709.stm

Published: 2004/01/19 00:57:04 GMT

© BBC MMIV