Wing Chun/Boxing connection

[madlilpimp]

I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?

[anerlich]

That theory is *not* new, nor is there much evidence to support it.

Good WC historians like Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu and Y Wu do not mention it in their works.

That said, I would have hoped that old time Chinese pugilists would have been open-minded enough to observe their Western contemporaries and consider integrating some of their stuff into their own systems.

Some people think that most of the Asian kicking arts were derived from Savate and other older Western arts, but there's little evidence for that either.

[KPM]

In the early 90's a guy named Karl Godwin came up with this and wrote it up in a magazine article. It was pure conjecture. He claimed to have met an old man that had learned something called "omnipugilism" somewhere in Europe and that it was amazingly similar to Wing Chun. But he never produced any further info or evidence on this man or what he did. His whole theory was based around the idea that pics of Yip Man in the basic ready stance and pics of old-time boxers like John L. Sullivan in a basic fighting stance were similar. He theorized that since Wing Chun developed in the coastal areas of southern China where extensive trading went on with western countries, the chinese likely came in contact with sailors that knew western bare-knuckle boxing and that this lead to the development of Wing Chun. There's no more to it than this. A theory only, and not a very good one.

Keith

[Nick Forrer]

'I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?'

I doubt it very much. Wing chun IMV is far more sophisticated (although not necessarily more complex) than western boxing. Of course if you look for similarities you will see them- after all human physiology and the laws of physics are universal- but this does not a connection make. Although it is often pointed out that the kind of boxing advocated in Jack dempseys 'championship boxing' bears an uncanny resemblance to wing chun (elbow down, hitting with the bottom three knuckles- so as to take advantage of the 'power line' etc.) even so, the presence of elbows, kicks, chops, palm strikes, body shifting, po pai, weapons, footwork, finger jabs etc. not to mention all the concepts in wing chun, should make one wary about pushing a connection IMO.

That said, If you can take a look at Kernspects book 'on single combat' you will see some interesting East/west comparisons.

[madlilpimp]

Yea a JKD guy posted this stuff on the SFUK forums thats why I asked. Ive always thought wing chun to be superior and quite different to boxing so I was kinda surprised to hear someone come up with a connection.

[Vio]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

[anerlich]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

Both prospects sound equally unlikely to me. How was the "research" conducted?

Replace "research" with "marketing" and you will have statements much closer to reality.

[Vio]

Heres a link to the wing chun thai boxing connection article. http://crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm
Apperantly wing chun has similar forms to traditional version of muay thai which they claim came from China.

[kj]

Originally posted by madlilpimp
I heard theres a new theory that states that wing chun is just a
version of western boxing that was learnt from early western sailors?

Does anyone know if theres any truth in this?

I have seen and read the text asserting this theory. While technically "anything is possible" and such theories can be a fun or interesting read, I offer with a HIGH degree of confidence that western sailors are not responsible for the origination of Wing Chun in China. If the word "certain" was part of my vernacular, I'd have used it here.

FWIW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

Heres a link to the wing chun thai boxing connection article. http://crane.50megs.com/index6u.htm

I can't get that link to work.

[reneritchie]

Things designed for a similar purpose will tend to be similiar. This is true of Exel vs. Lotus, and it's true of WCK and boxing and many other MA.

They do things similar because they're used by similar configured beings (bipeds) trying to do similar things (hit other bipeds).

However, WCK and Boxing are not the same, and IMHO WCK is fairly easy to see as an evolution of preceeding Chinese MA, whereas any connection to Western boxers would be tenuous at best and difficult to substantiate.

Once again, the Red Junks are known to have had Fujian White Crane, Hakka boxing, and various flavors of Southern fist (typically Fujian mixed with Guangdong boxing), and perhaps some influenced from Sichuan systems (the Fujian - Liangguang - Sichuan route was very popular during the time just before and up to the known WCK period). I don't think WCK has anything in it we wouldn't be able to trace back to a confluence of those systems.

WRT WCK and Thai Boxing, there are two interesting theories. One is, in terms of the Ng Mui legend, that WCK was founded on the Sichuan/Yunnan border, and spread down into Thailand as it spread into Guangdong.

However, if we look at history, during the hard times of late Qing up through the Japanese occupation, WCK people moved into SEA in search of better lives, spreading WCK into Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. It seems possible WCK was spread in Thailand during this period as well.

[Phenix]

Hey RR,

It is true, that Boxing is the ancestor of Wing Chun!
there is boxer uprising in 1900 right? That is a history FACT.


BOXER REBERIAN! 1900! FACTS

[Brodie Bortigno]

According to Leung Ting research Thai boxing is actually a distant relative to Wing Chun. And one wing chun man can handle two thai boxers.

I've never heard the theory, nor have I seen any evidence to support it. However much I doubt Leung Ting actually said such a thing, he would need to back it up with more than a statement. As for a wing chun man being able to "handle" two thai boxers, the statement is void as it doesn't take into account infinte variables. Wing Chun could be argued to be a superior art to Thai Boxing theoretically , but in order for theory to be applicable it must first be - you guessed it - applied. We can all sit around and discuss the body mechanics of a tan sau, hip power generation and all that, but it is of no use if you cannot apply it. Just because something is theoretically more powerful than something else does not mean it will be victorious indefinately.

[Vio]

Originally posted by Brodie Bortigno


I've never heard the theory, nor have I seen any evidence to support it. However much I doubt Leung Ting actually said such a thing, he would need to back it up with more than a statement. As for a wing chun man being able to "handle" two thai boxers, the statement is void as it doesn't take into account infinte variables. Wing Chun could be argued to be a superior art to Thai Boxing theoretically , but in order for theory to be applicable it must first be - you guessed it - applied. We can all sit around and discuss the body mechanics of a tan sau, hip power generation and all that, but it is of no use if you cannot apply it. Just because something is theoretically more powerful than something else does not mean it will be victorious indefinately.

Cheers.
I was simply quoting the article linked above where the author explains the connection. Is the link still not working?

[anerlich]

The link works, but I'd hardly say the text there is a masterpiece of historical scholarship.