tan sao

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Phenix
So, Went did Tan Sau stop? Stop by itself? stop by the coming force? stop by...... Hmmmm

when did your tan sau stop in you SLT and in real life? Hmmm

My tan sau stopped when my girlfriend dumped me.

[Savi]

Tan Sau
While Tan Sau may be a viable tool against a hook punch if done with Kwan Ma (bracing), it still creates a loss of Deui Ying (facing).

I see an advantage of using Tan Sau with bracing is that:

1. It does allow a simultaneous offense and defense. (If it doesn't work, prepare to grapple.)

I also see the disadvantages of it:

1. The hook punch may still snake behind the forearm of the Tan Sau

2. The Tan Sau elbow position is not proper for engagement, or energy control and bridge control; Tan Sau becomes a block rather than a dispersion

3. If successful, it still requires more effort for a Fahn Sau (following hand). By bracing to face the hooked punch, the range of the "Tan Sau" hand increases the further it goes from the attacker, thus creating a "long arm-short arm" problem. This is not in accord with Deui Ying Concept or Centerline Theory. On top of that, this type of application against the hook punch exposes your backside.

I see the use of bracing as an extremely high risk maneuver considering the proximity of the attacker WITHOUT the bridges under your control. I say it is best to step outside the central space, unless they give you no other choice. Keep it simple and unleash hell from the side, yo.

Originally posted by Vvyial
Savi: it is my understanding, for what it is worth, that the biu sau you describe is Go bong sau, because it is the same as the one i use. benny may change it up and give new names but it's still Moy Yat Kung Fu.

I have trained in the Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kuen, and even in MYVTK, Biu Sau and Bong Sau have distinctly different purposes and structure. I am quite familiar with how they are used, and they are not the same. BTW, your comment/assumption about my Sigung are unfounded and far from the truth. Try and stick to the topic.

Biu Sau and Bong Sau
A Biu Sau has the wrist higher than the elbow, while a Bong Sau has the wrist lower than the elbow.

- Biu Sau spears into attacks to "expand space" using the knife-edge of the arm. Your wrist also ends up above the bridgepoint. Biu Sau is used to destroy (more "chum" in nature) the attacker's center of gravity by use of forward energy or sideways energy.

- Bong Sau is used to deflect/bump space and "close off space", initially using the top side of the forearm - and if necessary rotating contact to the knife-edge. Your wrist will end up at or underneath the bridgepoint. Bong Sau is used to steer (Hoi Sung) by lifting or sinking the incoming force across the body to gain the flank of the attacker.

Parallel engagement...right with left or left with right...
I think bridging with Go Bong Sau against a hooked punch is the wrong time and space. If your intent is to bridge underneath the punch, consider whether or not you have even challenged the energy of the punch. Could you have kept it outside your space? Was it a fake or a knock-out type punch? How would you know? Will an immediate steering of the punch tell you the energy type? Or would a structure more closely resembling a Jong Sau tell you more?

If you are using the Go Bong Sau to bring the punch downwards...(don't know?) I'd like to read why and how that is possible considering the scenario.

If your Bong Sau is being used head-on into the punch, knife-edge to knife-edge... is it really a Bong Sau anymore?

It is a waste of time to operate in the same plane in space as the attack itself (sideways with sideways). Even to uplift the hook punch with Bong Sau (which in any case, a Kwan Sau seems more logical if one would go this route) causes a loss in Deui Ying; proper facing. You have to brace in order to clear your space.

Either that, or you are crossing your own center with the Go Bong Sau. And forget about cross-arm bridge with these two techniques, cuz I don't see how that is remotely logical. But hey, it may happen...

[Savi]

Originally posted by stuartm
Hi Savi,

The biu against a hook comes from the dummy before you go into po pai section. The biu starts from a wu sau and projects out at 45 degree with biu shape being quite rounded.

The last time my Sifu, Master SamKwok did a seminar for me, we tested this in detail with my srudent Mark ( 6ft 2 , 16 stone, ex-boxer) throwing full tight hooks and jabs at Sifu kwok - the biu worked every time.

Tan is pretty worthless in this situation.

Regards, Stu

I am not familiar with the sequence you have been taught in the MYJ (in the version I was taught, Biu Sau is done in section 8, whereas Po Pai section 5...oh well ), but your explanation of the Biu seems definitely appropriate in order to address the upper gate against the attack. Just how I see it...

[Vyvial]

The question of facing... it's hard to put into words. when shifting the line do not put your Siu Nim Tao Centerline/ mother-line past the opponent's shoulder, this now allows an attack down your 45 degree centerline / chum kiu line. So the tan sau is now facing the point of contact but the counter attack as in Tan Dar shoots down the 45 degree to the opponent, this works because of the weight shift to sidling stance, when weight is shifted to the back leg my center is now down that back leg at the 45 degree, it's all in Chum Kiu.

when to use go bong sau? one example because i am not a fan of defining techniques and when to use them.... opponent's punch comes out, i don't know what is coming i just see or feel his shoulder move. I throw out a man sau or a punch with man sau energy/intent when it makes contact with the attacker's arm i will only then know what to throw out, maybe a tan sau. if the arm hooks around then my body will follow with a small shift and if the punch still slides around my elbow will rotate up sticking to the inside if the attacker's elbow into a go bong sau. maybe with shoulder control so that they cannot generate another punch with that hand. If the punch goes through my structure then as an emergency i may have to let the hook come over the go bong sau and even over the head (mostly when the attacker is taller) while you attack under his arm to the floating ribs, kidney or whatever you end up on the outside gate...

ok maybe none of that made sense, it's not easy to put into words.

So Savi what is go bong sau and dai bong sau or even the man sau which belongs to Bong Sau? Are they a shape an energy or a structure? It's easy to try and define but the variables are so different.

I'm glad that you know your kung fu and can defend your point but i think as you get deeper in the system, same goes for me, you'll understand what I am saying better.

Savi-- "BTW, your comment/assumption about my Sigung are unfounded and far from the truth." Uncle Benny can do what he wants, it wasn't an insult, I'm glad to see him teaching advanced Moy Yat Kung Fu and Sigung's details even if he does mix it with HFY, more power to him and it's good to see the kung fu coming out. You wanna talk about the truth, some of were there when the Chops were taken back, some of us saw the letter from Sigung. Out of politeness it's not really brought up. I really don't wanna stir things up so this will be my last post on this subject, you or anyone can talk to me in private by phone or email or in person. I am readily available and enjoy the discussion.

Phenix-- rabbit punches can't really generate force if their body is not behind it, the math doesn't work. sorry, i'll trade a slap in the back head for multiple shots to the face, it's their risk not mine, this is even more so when applying forward pressure from the horse and stepping to center (tsui ma). If you mean that someone who walks up behind me and hits me in the head can hurt me well, yeah.

train the "wrong" techniques and you will be ready for anything, that is the nature of kung fu, train
technique A against attack B, then you are doing karate, not that, that is a bad thing... just a difference in training method. Besides, what is the "wrong" technique?

Personally I'd rather be ready for anything and make make my weakest points be my strongest.

Meaning that I'll train Chi Sau w/ poor positions and no centerline so that I can work on my defense and getting my hand back to center, I train my Chi Sau leaning forward or leaning backwards, I train w/o my horse engaged. When training My Sang Jeang (full contact long distance) Chi Sau I'll leave my hands down...

Why? Because that is how you train realistically, if i said "I'd rather not waste my time." and just trained "perfect" kung fu then i could have the best chi sau in class but i couldn't do much outside of that. But that is just my opinion and i have been wrong before.

Any questions please feel free to email me and then maybe i can explain what i am talking about better than i am now. or IM aol.

[Chango]

Uncle Benny can do what he wants, it wasn't an insult, I'm glad to see him teaching advanced Moy Yat Kung Fu and Sigung's details even if he does mix it with HFY, more power to him and it's good to see the kung fu coming out.

You really shouldn't speak on what you do not know. HFY and Moy Yat systems cannot "mix". You are not qualified to make such a statement. You are doing both systems a dis-service by your statments. Of course you only have one piece of the puzzle in front of you (the Moy Yat system) I personally know that the Moy Yat system is a great system in it's vast depth of knowlege. The signature teaching method of GM Moy Yat of "Kung fu life" really drives each concept of the Moy yat system home. so I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. From your I assume you have a credible knowlege of the Moy Yat system. However from your statememt you lack an understanding of the logic flow found at the core of Hung Fa Yi . As Savi and myself have finished the Moy Yat system forms, Jong, Pole etc... both having personal experiences with the late Grand Master himself. We are current members of the Hung Fa Yi family and have a working grasp of Hung Fa Yi and it's function. I will say it for the last time these systems do not mix.

You wanna talk about the truth, some of were there when the Chops were taken back, some of us saw the letter from Sigung. Out of politeness it's not really brought up. I really don't wanna stir things up so this will be my last post on this subject, you or anyone can talk to me in private by phone or email or in person. I am readily available and enjoy the discussion.

More things you are not qualified to talk about. As a third party I'm glad you are being polite and not bringing this up!LOL! uuhhemm.... Houston we have a problem... LOL! I don't see any point in any of us contacting you on this subject it seems you have your mind already made up for you. Third party to third party the limitations of that conversation has aready been set. If you are interested in productive conversation (kung fu related) I will be the first to e-mail or call you or see you in person. I value my time and I see no point in going back and fourth about these issues. Life's to short to be bothered with gossip and the "my style is better then yours" act. I have never in my years ever seen anyone covert or move to a different lineage under those conditions. As a matter of fact it does not look good for either side of what ever issue it may be. But of course it hasn't stopped others in the past. So I will look for your next post.

[Chango]

stuartm,
I agree that the Biu can be used and is very effective against a hook. I wanted to also address the issue with what alot of people qualify as a hook. I come from a family that has quite a few boxers in it. I must agree a close, tight hook with the body behind it is a very different hook then those that I have seen. That being said the use of tan sao must have the positon and foowork behind it or simply isn't going to be there. It seems that if used a recovery must follow and the energy would have to clash. So I personally think you give something up when using a Tan in this manner. The question is a interesting one in my opinion.

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, against a close tight hook (like a scraping hook from the clench) tan sao and biu sao probably won't work. More than likely you should duck or side step or just plain get out of the way. That is ofcourse assuming that you actually saw the hook coming.

Wing chun has a hook punch in it as well. Many systems will use a hook punch when in tight, and it is effective. When in the clench or even trapping range a hook can swing around obstructing limbs and still hit the side or back of its target. This is not only limited to the boxer's hook. Look at the giant hook-like motions white crane kung fu and Choy Lay Fut use. A tan sao nor a biu sao would work against one of those strikes. The idea behind them are that their arms are chains and their fists are rocks or iron balls. What does a chain do when it hits a pole? It wraps around the pole and still does damage to it. The same idea is behind these strikes and can be used with a hook punch as well. It uses the same theory that the ball and chain (morning star) uses against opponets with shields. They can also be chum techniques, or crashing techniques. CLF is known for its crashing bridges technique, and its effective to use against wing chun itself.

That being said there are many answers for a hook. However, I must give credit to the hook when used properly. A lot of times when in close range you can't see a hook coming until its too late. You could indeed to a tan + bon sao or a qwan sao against a hook. However, if you are not set perfectly structure wise, or do not have the physical strength to use force against it, it will hurt you either way. I tried many wing chun techniques against hooks while sparring. I found foot work and positioning to be the best answer. Constantly move and when an attack comes in that you can see step to the weak side and attack. That is just my experience though, so results may vary...

Oh also btw I do see your logic behind this statement:

train the "wrong" techniques and you will be ready for anything, that is the nature of kung fu, train
technique A against attack B, then you are doing karate, not that, that is a bad thing... just a difference in training method. Besides, what is the "wrong" technique?

I also agree with you to some extend in a certain point of view. However, I believe you are in the wrong mindset of this idea. It is good and very constructive to go out and spar other martial artists, boxers, etc. This will give you a dymanic which you can compare your training and techniques to. You may have to adpat your wing chun here and there to compensate for fighting different people, situations, and circumstances. However, it is IMHO that training the wrong thing is nothing but counter-productive to your training. We can also agree to disagree on this as well.

[stuartm]

Originally posted by Savi
I am not familiar with the sequence you have been taught in the MYJ (in the version I was taught, Biu Sau is done in section 8, whereas Po Pai section 5...oh well ), but your explanation of the Biu seems definitely appropriate in order to address the upper gate against the attack. Just how I see it...

Hi Savi,

In our Mook Yan Jong ( I assume you too are training the Yip Man Line) the sections starts with jut, then an outward biu on the dummys right arm followed by huen on the left and dai jeung, then the po pai section starts with kwun, straighten up and po pai etc etc

Anyway, I agree that tere will be occasions where the biu will not work, but imho, biu is more appropriate than tan any day of the week. A boxer is clever, and will be lining you up for the hook by moving around your centre. They also have good footowrk and so to say just shift with the tan is not a sufficient answer.

We also train to move into the hook by using biu ma, cover the head and the hook with a high pak sau, with a straight punch underneath the pak. This can work really well and can also be trained by just using Juen ma.

Sorry guys, Im just not a fan of tan sau in this situation.


Stu

[Mckind13]

I have only seen it mentioned once thus far...

But we are talking hand technique when we need to talk about fundamental Wing Chun v. Any kind of energy. In this case hooking.

What is the best way to.

Intercept the attack
Attack the attackers structure
move toward a more favorable position

Then really play with it....

Is the boxer throwing one hook or three,
Is it at the beginning of a combination or at the end
Did he step in and hook or is his hook a response to a bridge or attack I tried to create.
on and on and on...

This technique or that is a tired subject, the real meat is in the function. Does it matter if we use Go Bong or Biu or Tan?

Or does it matter what we accomplish and what are options are at the end of that initial action.

I practice a modified Fuk because the forearm shape provides a wedge that can absorb and deflect the attack, at the same time I use a palm or punch with my opposite hand.

With an eye to the above, I train stepping in and breaking the plane of the opponent’s body while using equal pressure with bridge arm and striking arm to drive the opponent back.

Finally, I see the hook as causing a slight change in my opponent’s center of gravity so instead of attacking his centerline directly I treat the center of rotation as the new center and attack that with my structure.

Dave

[JamesHFYofAZ]

So many opinions and so many differences! The funny thing about this thread as i read through it is every one is talking there own talk. Some times a biu is good, and some times a tan is good. From my experience of the MYS the taun is used with footwork and not stationary, but are you ever going to get caught in front of a boxer at such a range were they can use a close body hook? If yes, then you should of kicked that knee because you just let them in your space. If someone put together the info given in stead of rejecting, one could build some decent KF. Peace out!

[Gangsterfist]

James,

That is how fighting is. Its never the same so you can never have the exact same answer to a fight. Biu and Tan work well in certain situations. Against a good hook whether it be boxing, Muay Thai, White crane, CLF, etc is not going to really work.

You mentioned footwork, and I totally agree that foot work and positioning are very important in a fight. Wing chun is a trapping art and its practitioners usually like to be in close range to ideally put the system to work. This will make you vulnerable to close range attacks, including hooks. A lot of times you will not see the hook coming, or have time to do a biu sao which could take too much time to execute. Boxing techniques work well against boxers. Bobbing weaving, ducking, side stepping, etc. You could also redirect the hook punch with a pak sao I suppose.

but are you ever going to get caught in front of a boxer at such a range were they can use a close body hook? If yes, then you should of kicked that knee because you just let them in your space.

What if your kick is ineffective, or your opponet is keen to it and rolls it off their leg like it was just a mesquito bite? Since wing chun is a trapping art a lot of times you will find your opponet in close, or in your space as you put it. That is one of the major concepts of WC, to keep in close to your opponet to stick to them. Make them feel uncomfortable where you feel most comfortable. So there will never be a definate answer and a good answer will never always work. Sometimes you will take that hook right in your grill, just hope it doesn't hurt or knock you out. Or you could train taking hits so when you get hit at least you know what to expect.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

U going to stand nose to nose with a boxer. You'll probable take a flanking position.

Wing chun is a trapping art and its practitioners usually like to be in close range to ideally put the system to work.

Yes, I do study wing chun. If you are standing that close you should already being control or have an advantages position, yes?

What if your kick is ineffective, or your opponent is keen to it and rolls it off their leg like it was just a mosquito bite?

Dude, Its a boxer. if it has no affect then your training sucks, because the knee will be there, unless of course you use sloppy tecs. Note; you is not directly pointing to you, you know, finger at moon and all! Any ways, it sounds as if your mind is open to a lot! Good luck to you, seriously!
Last call!!!!!!!!!

[Gangsterfist]

okay james-

I was making a point that against any kind of fighter, like a street fighter or whatever your knee kick will not always work, reguardless of your training. I don't care if you are bruce lee, it will not always work.

Look at a professional boxer versus your professional martial artist. I bet you can't always control where you are. I also think that the martial artist would have a hard time controlling the boxer while standing up.

Yes, I do study wing chun. If you are standing that close you should already being control or have an advantages position, yes?

The key word here is should. Ever try to control a good boxer? Its hard, especially if they are keen to trapping. They will mad dog you and bum rush you once you think you have them trapped.

Dude, Its a boxer. if it has no affect then your training sucks, because the knee will be there, unless of course you use sloppy tecs. Note; you is not directly pointing to you, you know, finger at moon and all! Any ways, it sounds as if your mind is open to a lot! Good luck to you, seriously!
Last call!!!!!!!!!

Again not always true. You can train to roll attacks off your body as a last ditch effort. Sometimes its called glass body techniques. So, no a knee kick or groin shot will never be an absolute as you are making it sound to be. If that is not your intention, then its how you sound on the forum. Though it is hard to sometimes comprehend what someone is exactly saying online. So this is no personal attack towards you, just clarifying a few points. I know people that a knee kick would not really affect them, becuase they know how to move their body against it.

The thing is you are already in that range. Boxers use live and fast foot work you will be flanked before you know it if you are not on guard. So, since you are already in trapping range and boxers move quickly, you could be nose to nose in a split second.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

O.K. I see you, but I don't think you see through my eyes. I understand your semantics. If one lives in techniques then one is always having to react with defense or constantly moving with lucky strikes like a boxer. " if it doesn't get in thats o.k. I'll just through another one, two, three....I'll go here and do this or that with this and then..... Whatever!
Looking at any engagement, if the time says kick you kick not ask should I or what if. I have seen some stuff that I thought was unreal and found that it has the same answer every time. You telling me that I cant brake/tear/pop/dislocate that knee! Talk about taking to many hits to the dome! ....This is pointless to describe, due to difference in opinions.
Dude lets start a web site that has video feed that can be posted along with ones post!Any takers????????????????????????????
"Well my KF's not that good so I don't think I will." That s o.k. to, its all about the learning, right? Not you GF some other dude.
Any how, later!

[Phil Redmond]

There is a place where you can send WC videos to show others.
http://www.wck-media.co.uk