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Thread: Acupuncture

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    fahking mouthboxers who hide behind the internet need not make any comments on things they know nothing about.
    Its quite clear to anyone with 2 functional brain cells, based on my actual destruction of "evidences" you idiots present here, based on actual experimental knowledge and analysis, that I'm probably the only one here that actually knows wtf I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, with your last resort foaming at the mouth ad hominem, demonstrate a complete inability to even comprehend my criticisms on a fundamental level. Get an education, idiot.

  2. #62
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    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...e-doesnt-work/


    Open source. This article addresses, among many pubs, the articles linked by herb ox.

    Comparison of these 2 meta-analyses shows how important it is to read the results, not just the summaries. Although the outcomes were similar for both, the spin on the results in the abstracts (and consequently the tone of media reports) was very different.
    This is a bit of advice you, herb ox, specifically need to take to heart. But then this, of course, would require you to actually understand methods of analysis, something they apparently don't teach in CAM...
    Last edited by SoCo KungFu; 01-02-2016 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    yeah, and where does your degree in Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine come from? Yeah, I thought not.

    Sounds like the only chimp here is what you see in the mirror, twat.
    I just want to reemphasize how utterly stupid this response is. You, literally, typed a response in which every single word contributes to logical fallacy (3 actually). Way to go retard. Gold star sticker for you! /golfclap

  4. #64
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    of course acupuncture works

    Hi... as for if acupuncture works or not... I can only tell about some of my personal experiences.

    I was born at home and not in a hospital. I have never taken any pharmaceutical medicine in my life, and I am fine, at 31 years of age. I have never even had a shot before, such as a flu shot. If I feel like I have a head-ache or am feeling stress, I just do qi-gong exercise or tai chi, or other exercise, even push-ups help or go for a walk. Also I am a former marathon runner. My point is that I am healthy. My diet could be better, but I do incorporate health foods like rice milk, kale, organic energy bars, kombucha drinks, etc. when I can.

    A neighbor down the street was taking advil or tylonel for his headaches when he was out hiking, and he ruined his stomach lining because he was taking those drugs (internal bleeding, etc.) And he only took the tylonel's as recommended on label. Even the most common pharmaceutical drugs such as an advil are very dangerous. IMO, most people need to learn how to deal with a "headache" in a more natural way instead of popping a pill.

    So I can only conclude 2 things- pharmaceutical medicines, under normal circumstances just aren't necessary unless you experience accident, head injury, etc. than may be okay. Also, they are dangerous.

    I have never had acupuncture but my tai chi teacher was a traditional Chinese doctor. She was very good. She would have people flying from across the country to get her acupuncture (as there are a lot of people out there who aren't as skilled as someone like her in the art.) I have seen first-hand how acupuncture can help people with no bad side effects. Also, the theory of traditional Chinese medicine naturally "clicks" with me you might say- but this cannot be said for everyone. I have had clean professional tui na massage work done on me a few times before from various people and I always felt good and charged, grounded and energized after the work was done.

    IMO one cannot look at something like acupuncture from a western science/ medicine perspective. It's like an apple analyzing an orange, expecting the orange to be like an apple when this is not the case. A couple thousand years ago when Hippocrates was swigging apple cider vinegar maybe western medicine was similar to eastern... but this is not the case today... too much big money involved, etc. Since the late 19th century big pharma has been swindling the American people.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post
    Incomprehensible nonsense and personal anecdote.
    Especially this bit...

    IMO one cannot look at something like acupuncture from a western science/ medicine perspective.
    So...what, are we supposed to throw some bones? Read some tea leaves? I shouldn't even be justifying this post with a response.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    Especially this bit...



    So...what, are we supposed to throw some bones? Read some tea leaves? I shouldn't even be justifying this post with a response.
    Well like I said I have never had acupuncture, but have been around my teacher's clinic. I have seen first-hand how acupuncture can help people with no bad side effects. I have seen it help not one, but several people who had severe lime's disease... of course it is not a 'magic' cure but is very much capable of alleviating the symptoms and improving their quality of life. All kinds of people with all kinds of problems have been helped through proper acupuncture with no bad side effects.

    A good place to start would be with reading/ understanding the I Ching, as well as books and manuals about Chinese Medicine and other arts.

  8. #68
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    funny that the cowards who hide bray the loudest.

    Step forward and be known.

    until then you are a scared little boy who likes to think he knows something.

    Western Medicine kills how many people a year?

    More than 100,000

    Chinese Medicine? 0.

    Yeah keep that logical fallacy bull**** and stick it up your cowardly ass.

    Medicine in the west is no longer medicine, its profiteering pain and simple.
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  9. #69
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    I call those who think they know better than the brightest minds in research and medicine "armchair scientists".

    I call those who are unwilling to consider the other side's evidence "closed minded".

    SoCoKungFu, why do you harbor such hostility? Now ya got Mor Sao's Wood element all out of balance You would do well to study Chinese medicine, as you would quickly realize this attitude of yours is sure to cause disease in the end. Sure, you have your evidence-based medicine to treat your ails, but wouldn't you rather live a life free from mental anguish, conflict and anger?

    This is the essence of acupuncture and Chinese medicine - returning people to a place where they are in touch with their true nature (Ziran). Healing comes when we release our obsession with our emotions, craving for distractions or to feed the senses, and when we cultivate peace within ourselves. Acupuncture and CM will probably never be fully accepted by the "establishment", as these are things that are not able to be made into a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder.

    The Tao is free to all. Health, too, should be free for all who wish to attain it.

    Just sayin'.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    funny that the cowards who hide bray the loudest.

    Step forward and be known.

    until then you are a scared little boy who likes to think he knows something.
    Ad hominem

    Western Medicine kills how many people a year?

    More than 100,000

    Chinese Medicine? 0.
    Not only utter bull****, there's a fuking thread on this very **** forum on this very topic. Are you seriously this **** stupid?

    Yeah keep that logical fallacy bull**** and stick it up your cowardly ass.

    Medicine in the west is no longer medicine, its profiteering pain and simple.
    Says the idiot that cannot string together even 2 sentences without showing he has an IQ equivalent of Tinea unguium (that's the fungus infecting your toe nails, since you obviously lack any useful education to have known this)

    You're like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum because this is your only coping mechanism when met with a challenge you can't make go away. You lack the education to actually defend yourself. And since you can't use that coconut breaking skill through the internet, you devolve into a mouthbreathing idiot on public display. Congrats, this anonymous "coward" thoroughly trashed you and your profession and you can do nothing about it. Your very identity is that of a fraud. You're a quack, a hack and you suck money from those most vulnerable, the sick. You're disgusting.

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1289687]Well like I said I have never had acupuncture, but have been around my teacher's clinic. I have seen first-hand how acupuncture can help people with no bad side effects. I have seen it help not one, but several people who had severe lime's disease... of course it is not a 'magic' cure but is very much capable of alleviating the symptoms and improving their quality of life. All kinds of people with all kinds of problems have been helped through proper acupuncture with no bad side effects. [quote]

    Placebo. This is sort of, the entire point of this whole conversation....


    A good place to start would be with reading/ understanding the I Ching, as well as books and manuals about Chinese Medicine and other arts.
    I have. Probably more than you. I've also an advanced education in biological sciences, experience in research and experience working in health care. Do you have any of these? I'll put my experience and far more thorough education up against your "first-hand" observation of a limited number of cases, any day of the week.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by herb ox View Post
    I call those who think they know better than the brightest minds in research and medicine "armchair scientists".
    There's an irony here, but I doubt you'll pick it up... Also, I don't need to know better than the brightest minds in research, I only need to know better than you. You are not one of those minds. And I'm far closer to that mark than you.

    I call those who are unwilling to consider the other side's evidence "closed minded".
    Your "evidence" has been considered and found entirely lacking. I call those that can't accept reality in denial. And I call those that believe BS without valid proof, gullible.

    SoCoKungFu, why do you harbor such hostility?
    Red herring. Stay on topic. More over, it is you that has responded, repeatedly, in an overly defensive manner to the criticism (valid criticism) of the utterly shoddy "evidence" your camp continues to put out. Now, you can go find better proof (you won't, but sure try), or you can continue on these little self serving ego strokes that you think you are using to lecture me but really just show you off as utterly incompetent on the subject at hand (evidence, and the judgment of).

    Now ya got Mor Sao's Wood element all out of balance You would do well to study Chinese medicine, as you would quickly realize this attitude of yours is sure to cause disease in the end.
    More deflection. Defend your position or go. You're not lecturing to me. Lick your wounded ego somewhere else. As for Mor Sao, he's a overgrown baby incapable of intellectually producing an argument. He's a child that has decided to throw his cheerios all over the floor because he has no other way to cope.

    bunch of other irrelevant pseudophilosophical ridiculousness
    You've yet to provide a solid argument that acupuncture is anything more than placebo.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    Its quite clear to anyone with 2 functional brain cells, based on my actual destruction of "evidences" you idiots present here, based on actual experimental knowledge and analysis, that I'm probably the only one here that actually knows wtf I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, with your last resort foaming at the mouth ad hominem, demonstrate a complete inability to even comprehend my criticisms on a fundamental level. Get an education, idiot.
    I have a Masters in Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine as well as B.A. in Japanese Studies from Earlham College

    I can prove it easily.

    You on the other hand hide but claim you are some fahking wicked smart guy.

    Post up your degrees and who you are, or fahk off. Life is too short to hide.

    Unless you have something to hide.
    Last edited by Mor Sao; 01-14-2016 at 06:23 PM.
    Dr. Dale Dugas
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  14. #74
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    Acupuncture may help Fibromyalgia sufferers, study shows.

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306569.php

    Fibromyalgia sufferers might benefit from tailored acupuncture
    Written by Tim Newman
    Published: Tuesday 16 February 2016

    Fibromyalgia affects an estimated 5 million Americans, 80-90% of whom are women. The disorder is characterized by widespread pain and diffuse tenderness. Although there is no cure, tailored acupuncture might provide some welcome respite, according to a new study.

    New research shows that tailored acupuncture might relieve fibromyalgia symptoms.

    Although difficult to categorize, fibromyalgia is considered a rheumatic condition because it impairs soft tissue and joints and causes pain.

    Fibromyalgia carries with it a number of other life-disrupting symptoms that vary from individual to individual.

    These symptoms can include muscle stiffness, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and sensitivity to temperature, sounds and bright lights.

    The exact causes of fibromyalgia are not well understood; however, hypothesized culprits include traumatic or stressful life events and repetitive injuries.

    There might also be links to other diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis; some researchers believe there is a genetic component at work, too. Because there are no known biological markers, diagnosing fibromyalgia can be problematic. To reach a conclusive decision, other overlapping disorders must first be ruled out.

    Because of these questions surrounding genesis and diagnosis, effective treatments for fibromyalgia are not forthcoming.

    A recent study conducted at Doňa Mercedes Primary Health Centre, in Seville, Spain, looked at the potential use of acupuncture to ease fibromyalgia's symptoms.
    Complementary medicine and fibromyalgia

    Perhaps because of the lack of medical treatments for fibromyalgia, one study found that 91% of sufferers seek solace in complementary medicine such as hydrotherapy, massage and acupuncture.

    Acupuncture is used by 1 in 5 fibromyalgia patients within 2 years of diagnosis.

    Previous clinical trials testing acupuncture's efficacy have been inconclusive, but these studies did not tailor the course of acupuncture to suit the individual needs of each fibromyalgia patient.

    To investigate whether this might make a difference, the research team, led by Dr. Teresa Leiva, compared tailored acupuncture against sham acupuncture in 153 patients. Sham acupuncture involved using the same guide tubes as the genuine acupuncture group, but without inserting needles. The sham treatment solely focused on the dorsal and lumbar regions.

    Each patient (sham and tailored) received 20-minute-long treatments, every week for 9 weeks. During the trial, the patients continued taking any prescription drugs they were already using.

    The participants completed questionnaires rating various parameters such as levels of pain, depression and the overall impact of the disease on their lives. These reviews were carried out before the trial, at 10 weeks, 6 months and 12 months.
    Sham vs. tailored acupuncture in fibromyalgia

    At the 10-week mark, the tailored acupuncture group reported a 41% drop in pain, whereas the sham acupuncture group reported a 27% reduction.

    Twelve months later, the effect was still apparent. The tailored group and sham group reported 20% and 6% reductions in pain, respectively.

    The questions that rated the overall impact of fibromyalgia on participant quality of life told the same story across all three time points. The tailored group reported reductions in the disease's negative impact of 35%, 25% and 22%; the sham acupuncture group, at the same points in time, registered reductions of 24.5%, 11% and 5%.

    Also, general measures of anxiety, fatigue and depression were significantly better at the 10-week mark for the tailored acupuncture group. The differences were still evident after a year, but the researchers note that antidepressant usage in the group had also risen, making the results difficult to interpret.

    The authors of the report, published in Acupuncture in Medicine, a BMJ journal, concluded:

    "This treatment produced an improvement in the participants' condition [...] Such an outcome has not been reported by previous studies following the application of standardized treatments: therefore, our results suggest that applying individualized treatment algorithms when starting a course of acupuncture may be important."

    As the authors are quick to mention, this is the first time such a positive result has been found; additional, large-scale work will need to be carried out before solid conclusions are drawn. Because current medication only deals with the symptoms of fibromyalgia, any intervention that can ease the suffering will be a welcome advance.

    Medical News Today recently covered research showing that acupuncture might be a safe treatment for chronic pain in children.

  15. #75
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    Recent development of acupuncture on Parkinson's disease

    The "results" section of the abstract says it all... "acupuncture therapy is in fact a neuroprotective therapy"...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20034437

    Neurol Res. 2010 Feb;32 Suppl 1:5-9. doi: 10.1179/016164109X12537002793643.
    Recent development of acupuncture on Parkinson's disease.
    Joh TH1, Park HJ, Kim SN, Lee H.

    Abstract

    OBJECTIVES:
    Parkinson's disease is a complex disease with multiple etiological factors involved in disease pathogenesis, and the molecular and cellular pathways for neurodegeneration are still elusive.

    METHODS:
    We reviewed all the relevant laboratory findings regarding acupuncture mechanism on Parkinson's disease.

    RESULTS:
    Acupuncture treatments in animal experiments have generated valuable mechanistic insights of Parkinson's disease and shown that acupuncture therapy is in fact a neuroprotective therapy which increases various neuroprotective agents such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor, glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor and cyclophilin A. In addition, acupuncture therapy decreases cell death processes and attenuates oxidative stress to substantia nigra dopaminergic neurons.

    DISCUSSION:
    These results suggest that early application of acupuncture therapy for Parkinson's disease patients may be helpful for the best efficacy of acupuncture treatment.

    PMID:
    20034437

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