Linear Forms vs. Geometric patterns

[Oso]

- Is it executed on traditional Mantis lines/routes or are the steps geometric? (x, cross and box patterns).

Are all mantis forms linear, regardless of branch?

If not...

...can anyone say which branches have which or combinations of both?


...is there a specific point where a switch to linear forms was made?


t'anks

[Mr.Binx]

By the term linear, are you referring to the direction of forward and backward movements in a form being acted along the same line or travel?

[Oso]

yes, sorry for the lack of clarity.

The quote from a post in another thread spawned the questions.

I have a small set of 5 forms taught to me as PM. Only one of them is linear. The others form 4 different patterns on the ground. I don't know which branch they come from or if they are legitimate NPM or not. Thus, the questions.

Within the next month or two I hope to have all 5 of them up on my website so I can get input on them.

[Mr.Binx]

Most of the forms I have seen firsthand (in my extremely limited experience as a student thus far), at least as far as tai chi and seven star tanglang are concerned, were all on routes which were equal to or divisible by 45 degrees, but often start and end on the same line of travel.

Edit: I'm currently learning Dai Fan Che in seven star tanglang. All the movements are on a 45 degree pivot, though the line of actual travel branches at 90 degrees similar to a cross, unless of course I am performing that portion of it incorrectly.

[German Bai Lung]

Most of the forms in 7* are linear. But there are some that have cross movements like Sei Lou Ban Da Kuen or some weapon forms with 45° roads...

[Oso]

specifically the 4 sets move:

in a box w/ a road extending from the box

___
_____/
l l
l___l

yes, that's what it looks like


the next one is a circle. start facing out at 12 and there are 12 movements around the circle back to 12.



the next one is a x but with the top and bottom closed



____
\ /
\ /
\ /
/ \
/ \
/___\




the last is roughly a box with an x inside



can you tell I'm bored at work

[Oso]

LOL, ok, that didn't work at all.


I'll do something later and post a .jpg

[ursa major]

Interesting post Oso.

I can only speak for the 7 Star that I practice. Of the 7 Star handforms that I practice only two divert from what I call 'north/south lines' also known as 'routes' also known as 'roads'.

Those two forms are 4-Direction Fighting and Praying Mantis Exits Cave. The former is entirely devoted to direction change the latter has one road that breaks with the north/south tradition (takes off at 45 degrees for a short stint).

The practice of north/south roads is common in PM but certainly not the rule -- atleast amongst the PM styles that I have witnessed.

regards,
UM.

[grifter721]

most forms have north south roads, but some of the advanced sets break off and 'do something totally diff' There is one form where you complete a circle around an opponent and then go north again.

[MantisifuFW]

Oso,

I am by no means the most knowledgable authority of Wong Hon Fun Tanglang but I offer the following for consideration:

Jeuy Law Hawn (Joy Lo Han) departs from the line from East/West to North/South.

Dou Gang departs from the East/ West to North/ South #32-36.

Dai Fan Che departs from the East/ West to North/ South.

Lan Jeet in its final movements has techniques that face outward from the line diagonally.

Bung Bo in its initial movements has angular movements that face inward towards the line diagonally.

Anytime the practitioner does the "Dou Gang" technique, #11,#12 in Dou Gang and #22, #23 in Sup Bat Sou one angles diagonally from the line to the rear.

Say Lo Bung Da and Dai Fan Che are particuarly important in that they address the idea of "fighting in all directions" as if against multiple opponents.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Good points, yet compared to other systems we do not often make much of a break off the north/south line.

The way I see it our brief excursions off the line (other than the aforementioned PM Exits Cave, 4-Direction Fighting and grifter721's reference) are just a side-step (Bung Bo) or angular retreat (Duo Gang). I would be pressed to compare these to systems that employ x, cross and box patterns eg: HG's Tiger & Crane.

Personally I prefer the north/south line. Having come from a system that did only x, cross and box pattern forms I found 7 Star to be unusual at first. Yet these days I find it most preferable.

regards,
UM.

[MantisCool]

Well, our branch's Mantis exits the cave is all linear and is also not mentioned by S. Cottrell, but our Lan Jit is all linear ?

[Oso]

ok, attached is the roadmap to the first form
taught to me simply as 'tong long'

I did it on ms paint so don't expect a picasso

btw, start is at '1' facing north.
the first move turns you west

at each corner a direction change is made
w/ a cross step/uncoil

more than one move is made on each road

I do not have this form on tape but hope to soon and will email to anyone willing to look.

Sifu Cottrell, one of your students, big guy black hair, saw it in Cleveland in 2000 at the GL that year.

[ursa major]

Picasso wasn't a PM guy so what do we care ? (haha).

Oso, just because a form is not linear does not make it any the less PM. What I do find notable is that the form (as per your art work) does not finish by leaving the practitioner in the same location they started from.

It has been my experience that our forms, when finished, typically leave one in a position ending up more or less where one started from. This is a trait shared amongst many styles that I have witnessed or participated in which includes PM and non-PM systems.

If you are curious as to how your PM forms fit into the wider scheme of PM I encourage you to seek further details of their origin and history.

best regards,
UM.

[mantis108]

Isn't that the shape of the bigger dipper constellation a.k.a 7 Stars or Ursa Major? Do you have the name of the form, Oso?

Warm regards

Mantis108