Linear Forms vs. Geometric patterns

[Oso]

um, thanks for the input. you bring up another question I have had for a while:

What is the point of finishing on the same spot as you started?

The fifth form I was taught by this instructor does fit the linear road pattern and is supposed to finish you where you started.

One of my thoughts on the form I illustrated is that changes in foot work could 'collapse' the branching arm back into the square and finish on the starting corner. If a box form is somewhat traditional then maybe someone changed the last road to give this set the obvious shape of (heh, this just hit me) 'ursa major'

I can think of no 'combative' reason for a form to move so that it finishes on the starting point. What am I missing?

I do see, or at least I think I see, that if the form was built with specific footwork in it, and you weren't doing the footwork correctly then you would be off the mark at the end. Thereby indicating that you either didn't know the correct footwork or at least weren't hitting it right.

I am at a dead end with the person I learned these sets from. Not his fault, I blame the person who taught him for the lack of background. However, my old teacher's reactions to my questions are why I have moved on.

mantis108, I was just taught this as 'tong long' sometimes as 'tong long#1' as the 5th form was titled 'tong long#2'

I was initially told that we were studying 7 star. Then after I discovered that that definitely wasn't true, the story got changed to 'secret door'.

If anyone has a big enough email account I'd be happy to email some of the clips I do have of these sets. The are .wmv and around 1.5 mb. I don't have this one but I do have a couple of the others.

[mantis108]

Hi Oso,

If I may:

<<<What is the point of finishing on the same spot as you started?>>>

Well, the reason for this IMHO is usually more intellectual or philosophical even spirtual than physical. But on the physical side of thing, it depends on the training methodology. Some styles' forms function sort of like a big long 2 men flow drills. As any good well thought out flow drill should be, they should be able to start and end in the starting position. One should be able to navigate back and forth and never miss the initial reference point. I believe it serves as a reminder of the journey on the philosophical side.

<<<The fifth form I was taught by this instructor does fit the linear road pattern and is supposed to finish you where you started.>>>

Thanks for the info. Personally, I don't like to number the forms. I believe the names are there for a purpose. A lot of the people in the west teach form using number to circumvent the language barrier. It causes more confusion than anything else.

<<<One of my thoughts on the form I illustrated is that changes in foot work could 'collapse' the branching arm back into the square and finish on the starting corner. If a box form is somewhat traditional then maybe someone changed the last road to give this set the obvious shape of (heh, this just hit me) 'ursa major'>>>

Personally, I like this formation better than the box especially if space is available. Linear forms are usually of Shaolin tradition and have military applications.

<<<I can think of no 'combative' reason for a form to move so that it finishes on the starting point. What am I missing?>>>

Well, I can think of 2 reasons. 1) If you defending a position, you don't want to leave it to the opponent. This is particularly important to training troops I believe. 2) If the starting position is your escape route (ie a door), you would want to be able to get back there as quickly as possible. So a linear form functions on short straight line is the best option. By the same token, if you started in a corner or a trap, you would want to get out quickly and drive your opponent in there instead.

<<<I do see, or at least I think I see, that if the form was built with specific footwork in it, and you weren't doing the footwork correctly then you would be off the mark at the end. Thereby indicating that you either didn't know the correct footwork or at least weren't hitting it right.>>>

That's true as well.

<<<I am at a dead end with the person I learned these sets from. Not his fault, I blame the person who taught him for the lack of background. However, my old teacher's reactions to my questions are why I have moved on.>>>

I hear you. There are people out there that treat forms as secrat cow and worship them on the pedestal.

<<mantis108, I was just taught this as 'tong long' sometimes as 'tong long#1' as the 5th form was titled 'tong long#2'

I was initially told that we were studying 7 star. Then after I discovered that that definitely wasn't true, the story got changed to 'secret door'.>>>

Ah, I see.

<<<If anyone has a big enough email account I'd be happy to email some of the clips I do have of these sets. The are .wmv and around 1.5 mb. I don't have this one but I do have a couple of the others.>>>

I would love to see them. So if you don't mind sending them over to Mantis108 , I will give you my feed back. Thank you in advance.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Mantis108 -- definitely a likeness to Ursa Major you would think I would have noticed.....

Oso,
Personally I prefer the linear nature of our forms. When I used to practice HG it was often chaotic if not impossible to have 4 or 5 or more people doing forms in the kwoon even worse (keep the first aid kit nearby) if someone was doing spear, staff or sword. Collisions abounded because the forms had you doing geometric patterns here there and everywhere. No kidding in a really crowded class it was almost comical.

On the other hand having forms in lines makes it really easy for many people to practice simultaneously. So from my perspective it is simply a matter of practicality that I find the PM way beneficent.

About ending where you started from, it is a pretty good way of letting you know if you missed a step or two? I don't know how it is for you but I practice over 30 handforms and when I return to a given form after several (or more) weeks I often misplace steps or sometimes even entire roads so if I end up facing south when I should be facing north or am 'halfway home' well, I know I have some work to do.

Best regards,
UM.

[Oso]

Hi all, I'm working on ( or rather, my girl is working on ) getting the files on my website. I figured that might be simpler and you can go and download them from there. The site should be up later tonight and I'll post when it is.

[Oso]

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/ninjassuck.htm

ok, that's the page with the video clips on them.

due to my poor technology level all the forms are in two parts but B picks up right where A leaves off.

vid quality is .wmv not to hot in other words. but, they are relatively small.

all the sets here were done at fairly slow speed and I haven't really worked these in a while. Been busy on Pong Lai stuff.

A short description of each set follows.


CLOUD HANDS

this runs a circle a la bagua but with 12 steps around the circle and 3 back accross the center at the end. spear hands and eagle claws and lots of flanking.

MONKEY

A great deal of our groundwork philosophy came from this set. nearly every move is supposed to be a take down. never done this one very well cuz i'm a big fat azz. There should be a split at one point where I'm doing a hurdler's stretch.


Double Stick sets

These are the first two I learned. There is a third but I suck at it.
Tainan has said that these remind him of some of his saber sets.


Trash away gentlemen.

I will hopefully have more to offer in video pretty soon.
Just got diagnosed with a partially separated shoulder so Feb will be a slow month for me martially. Need to rehab.

BTW, the site is newly redesigned. With the new framework up I will be adding still pics and vids from class and my sordid past soon.

I can also hook you up with the web designer.

[Mr.Binx]

The monkey form kinda hit something in the back of my head. I have noticed that alot of the pictures and videos that I have picked through regarding eight-step praying mantis are very ground heavy (rolls, hand-plants, low stances, straight top-to-bottom pull-downs from overhead [rather than the twisting, spiral, bring-downs of sevenstar], etc.) and the monkey form, although loose, seemed to have left this exact same aftertaste in my head as a few of the eight-step forms I found did. Could any eight-step peeps verify a strong monkey-influence in their line of tanglang? Don't feel bad if you need to point out to me that I am getting a completely wrong impression. Can't learn if I'm afraid to ask people questions, neh?

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso,
Many styles of PM have forms that finish and start on a different location as well as face a different direction.

Some schools may have changed this over the eyars.
EG,my shrfu has 3 teachers of hsiao fanche. He told me that everyone version, quite different, but all finished different spot and facing a different direction.

Not even all my shr hsiungs know this as he changed it to start and stop on the same spot.
Other wise, he said, people will think that you forgot something in the form.

PM has an old proverb about how when the mantis walks out the door it never turns back and hence no bother trying to start an stop on the same spot.

To me, it just goes to show that the forms are colections of tecniques that should be trained with a partner, not for looking good.

[Oso]

Mr. Binx:
One of the few other people to see these forms, seung ga fat, also said he could see an bagua/8 step influence. FTR, the first move from the low x block/catch is a spiraling throw. One of the major themes we had was to evade by flanking while catching the attackers limb or head and taking them down with a spiraling movement.

My opinion is that there is SOME PM in these sets but that they were created 2 or 3 steps back of the line from me. I know that the guy I learned from passed them to us as he received them. His teacher was all over the globe physically and I think martially. He settled down for a while and began to teach what he knew, and used, and for whatever reason, decided to call it PM. I just can't get anyone to admit that.



TM, where does the tradition to start/stop on the same spot originate?

To me, it just goes to show that the forms are colections of tecniques that should be trained with a partner, not for looking good.

good thing for me

[grifter721]

I think forms are supposed to begin and end where they begun to show discipline as well as skill. Much like modern wushu....they have to execute a from within a certain amount of time, if not points are deducted away. Much like in 7 star the beginner sets to intermediate sets are easy to begin and end in the same spot. But in the more advanced sets where the footwork is more difficult and the steps are faster, you get into problems as you get to the end. You have to figure that one out. Plumb Flower falling down form, for example, although not an andvanced set, is hard to begin and end at the same spot, the ending 'big wheel' motion, then the reverse chop motion kind of messes it up....But yet it is possible to begin and end where you are begin. Thats how it is in Seven Star Mantis.

My 2 cents.

[Oso]

But Why?

I don't see any difference between accurately starting and finishing at Point A versus starting at Point A and finishing at Point B IF that is how the form should be played. Just as much accuracy is required to do either.

It's the developement of the two that I'm curious about.

[mantis108]

I agree with Tainan Mantis that mantis forms are not necessary start and end the same spot.

Thanks for the link. I have difficulty downloading directly from there. I managed to download the monky clip though. It's quite an interesting form. I think the ground elements in the form are based off a ground and pound mindset. I don't see the classical ground combination which can be found in many styles. The combination basically goes like:

Pa Hu (sprawl), Chuan Tui (get back to guard position), Tornado Kick (Upa drill), Chuan Tui, and Wugongtan (kip up).

I can see you have lots of forward rolls and your punches are quite impressive.

Good clip.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

mantis108, thanks and I'll check the links again.

applications were a ground and pound but not stationary.
we never worked a 'mount' per se but rolls accross a prone opponent using the body to strike as well as the hands.
also a lot of apps where limbs were grabbed and twisted as you rolled across them and away.

[MantisCool]

I agreed with Grifter that forms should begin and end at the same place or near the same place.

Lets say we marked on the floor a, b, c, d, and e. and 5 persons are asked to perform the same set and starts at a. After finishing 1 person ends at a, and the other at b and so on. So, where is the standard? Who is right and who is wrong? Thats why we must start and end at the same place so that everybody have a guideline to follow. We have all forms starting and ends at the same place except 1 or 2 which I believe is due to some ommission of steps which was lost from one generation to the other.

The Plum Blossom Falling Down is not difficult to end at the same place, you just perform your big wheel motion backward further down to the place you started the set.

[German Bai Lung]

Since I first was confronted with the suggestion to end forms where they started from, I was thinking about... now 10 years..

My thoughts:
- I see it like Mantis Cool or grifter: the benefits are to check out if everything is right and to work on your forms if not.
- BUT: people are very different in shape and constitution. So some can´t end the form on exactly the same spot. Due to the fact, that they did some steps much longer than normally. Some guy jumps maybe a lot further etc... why shall I stop this especially of their movements? Maybe thats a good benefit sometime in a fight...
I mean: everyone is different, so the execution of one form is different too.
But I agree: end must be "Near" the starting point.

[Oso]

Good Morning (5:30 am here) !

ok, so I can totally see your points on forms that were built to start and end in the same place (or near which makes more sense to me given varying interpretations of moves by differing peeps).

But, I still don't see why that's any more valid than starting at A and ending at Z if each move from A thorugh Z is performed as it was designed.

I just feel like there has to be a point in history where forms tended to be created linearly vs. geometrically.

IMHO, it seems more natural to not be linear. I've never sparred where I went back and forth and would be dropped for pushups or sitting in a horse for a 'break' if I did. In fighting you are going to be all over the place.

Why would you want to constrain a form to a linear ideal when it's exactly opposite of the ideal fro good fighting?


(mind you, I'm just thinking out loud here)