"Light Gung Fu"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Jaza,

Of course in maths, you can have an n dimensional system if you have n number of elements in your array. Don't forget in theoretical physics, alot of what is postulated may not be observed, and the number of dimensions has to do with making the equations fit. Yes there may be 16 for a theory, 17, 18 or more in others.

Yes, I agree, the act of observing changes the subkect matter as there isn't a so called "passive" observer. Refer to schrodiginer's cat. Isn't it amazing that the chinese "magic" has put this idea into practice. By altering their state of mind through meditation and training, they can manipulate the physical world in ways that seem contary to newtonian laws. Their chi based training may in fact hold the key in making large objects behave in quantum states, akin to Bose-Einstein Condensation, but in room temprature. That is just a guess.

[Tit Sa]

Do you believe in magic,...la,..da,..la,...la....da....

Anybody remember that tune?

[JAZA]

Ego, you are creative, may be you can write some sci-fi esoterical stories.

[TenTigers]

ok, a couple of things: first, Ego-for someone who has haunted these boards as Troll Extroadinaire, your views on light body, Ch'i-Gung,and quantum physics are refreshing!
About Lam Sang-it has been said that he was very into San-Da, as were alot of people from his clan, and that might have contributed to that ability-talk about opening up a can of worms!
This might bring the two "sciences" together=spiritual gung-fu and quantum physics. I don't know enough about either to speak on this, but perhaps someone else will. Perhaps we can solve this riddle.
Three-there have been numerous world record high jumps over 8 feet, and running broad jumps of 30 feet. Wan Ji Ming in his younger days used to jump across the tracks from subway platform to platform. Not really outstanding when you measure the width of a subway track, but ballsy as hell to actually do it.
If you look at the way olympic atheletes train, it would not be impossible to see Gung-Fu adepts jump that high as well. Look at the height wu-shu performers get, or gymnasts doing floor ex. Over time, these stories might have gotten somewhat 'stretched' and thus legends were born. But all of them were probably based on some truth. Every culture-Asian,Indian,Native American, etc has stories of spiritual adepts living in seclusion achieving miraculous skills, such as levitation. Is it simply coincidence that they all are alike? There must be a grain of truth in there somewhere. I know that I was playing on the track with my daughters a few years ago, and I astounded myself with the distance I was able to jump, both standing and running. And I'm 47, and I don't practice jumping. Kinda makes ya wanna dig a hole in the back yard and get some ankle weights....
Here's another tidbit-I think I once saw some stuff on light body and they were talking about changing the elements within your body-meaning the energy quality in regards to the five element theory in TCM, or perhaps the five element in Tibetan Tantra-earth, air, water,fire, and spirit-which might be closer. Anyone know anything about this? The only thing I know is what I've read by Stephen Hayes.

[ctoepker]

Ego,

You've got to be kidding! Right!? Well, in any case, congrats...you've successfully trolled me.

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
At some point science would have to acdept certain things because it appears to make the world work. Taking aside meta-physical events, science does not explain the WHY? As with chi based techniques, science can measure it's effect but it cannot explain the fundamental reasons behind chi, as it cannot do with electro magnitism, strong, weak or gravition forces in this universe.

Are you saying that Chinese science and/or chi theory does explain the WHY? Can you ellaborate? Also, I have never seen measurement of chi by 'science.' Can you ellaborate? Finally, are you saying that electromagnetism can't be measured? How do you explain a compass? Gravity can't be measured? How do you explain the "G" as a unit of measurement? As for the others...

Latest scientific thinking suggest there may be up to 16 dimensions which is required for quantum theory to hold true. It is possible that the chinese, through their incantations have opend a door way into some of these dimensions whereby the laws of physics behave quite differently. These dimensions are said to operate locally, which raises the possibility of people flying up 100 feet into the air, or "grounding" themselves on a wall.

I think you have greatly misinterpreted string theory. Nothing in the multi-dimensional thinking would lead one to believe that affects like flying or sticking to a wall are possible. Nor is there anything to indicate it can be triggered by speaking incantations. Indeed, at this point the dimensional discussion is purely theoretical and mathmatical. Many physists discredit it because there is no way to test for it. The retort by believers? Some day we'll come up with a way...we couldn't test for many of Einstein's theories right away either.

The point is that science often can explain they WHY. Why can't a human stick to a wall, but a geko can? Why can a several ton airplane fly, but a couple hundred pounds of man can't? There are answers, even if you prefer blinders.

The fact that the chinese advanced this far with their science throusands of years ago suggest that an arms race was taking place between what we understand as science and what we would consider "magic".

For instance, why would the chinese have developed the semi-automatic cross bow when you know from western medieval history that one shot is sufficient to stop a knight fully clad in armour at a great distance. It must be because the chinese had to hit a target that is incredibly agile and is armoured with something that is far stronger than iron. Nothing in those days besides kung fu practitioners seething in chi could achieve that. and we know there were renegade monks that conventionally trained government troops had to stop (or try too).

This incredibly ill founded. I think you haven't yet read the article I cross referenced above. Renegade monks and rebellions incited by them were put down time and again without much trouble by troops. You conclude that because there was an automatic crossbow there must be a magical arms race, but there is nothing like that in the record. Can you point to one instance from battle reports that indicate the magic you assert?

Indeed, if there were this magic, then why couldn't the government hire it too? Where are the pro-gov't magicians? And if they were so powerful, why didn't the Chinese take over the world centuries ago?

These government troops were not large in number, but nevertheless concerned the sharmanic priest of old.

This possibly led to the development of gun powder and a dilivery system that resembles the weapons used in the 21th century. Thousands of years into the future! I'm talking about rockets, surface to surface rockets to blow up the undead. The chinese replaced their archers with arrays of rocket batteries that rained terror down from the skies.

This puts the nail in the coffin of your arguments. Gov't troops that were not large in number? How many troops would you say was 'not large?' And what do you think the number of gov't troops was?

Furthermore, the Chinese never replaced their archers. Indeed, it is interesting that as they developed rockets, guns, etc. that they mixed all the ballistic technologies together and didn't change tactics much.

Ego, I suggest that you read more and day dream less. And congratulations again for successfully trolled me.

CT

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

ctoepker

"Are you saying that Chinese science and/or chi theory does explain the WHY? Can you ellaborate? Also, I have never seen measurement of chi by 'science.' Can you ellaborate? Finally, are you saying that electromagnetism can't be measured? How do you explain a compass? Gravity can't be measured? How do you explain the "G" as a unit of measurement? As for the others..."

That's not what I'm saying, the forces that you mentioned can be measured, but science cannot explain why certain constants as you would have been aware of are needed to make the equations represent the universe we live in. No, science has not measured chi, because it is subject to the stae of mind of the practiitioner. Most chi kung experts today are very weak in any case. In the past sharmen were able to raise the dead, now all they do is tell fung sui.

"I think you have greatly misinterpreted string theory. Nothing in the multi-dimensional thinking would lead one to believe that affects like flying or sticking to a wall are possible. Nor is there anything to indicate it can be triggered by speaking incantations. Indeed, at this point the dimensional discussion is purely theoretical and mathmatical. Many physists discredit it because there is no way to test for it. The retort by believers? Some day we'll come up with a way...we couldn't test for many of Einstein's theories right away either."

Nothing to say that it can't. But what we know is that certain substances cooled to a temprature close to zero kelvin exhabit super conductive properties and can levitate in the presence of a magantic field. We know full well that shaolin monks can levitate and fly 100s of feet into the air. However, in my earlier post, I did say that I'll be guessing that they can transform matter into such properties at room temprature.

"The point is that science often can explain they WHY. Why can't a human stick to a wall, but a geko can? Why can a several ton airplane fly, but a couple hundred pounds of man can't? There are answers, even if you prefer blinders."

But that's assuming that you discount chi. The reason why shaolin monks test their chi kung against bronze men is so that they can prepare for armored calvery charge. Although the kwan do has a long range, chi that is focused on to a small surface area is far more deadly and has an even longer range. However, if there are iron deposits near by, it may reduce the accuracy of the beam. Water vapor in the air might also cause the beam to refract, lose power and create ozone.

"This incredibly ill founded. I think you haven't yet read the article I cross referenced above. Renegade monks and rebellions incited by them were put down time and again without much trouble by troops. You conclude that because there was an automatic crossbow there must be a magical arms race, but there is nothing like that in the record. Can you point to one instance from battle reports that indicate the magic you assert?"

Generals were afraid that if they reported bad news they would be executed. Don't forget, that the seidge on shaolin temple was accomplished by soldiers armed with cannons, heavy armour and vastly out numbered the monks. The monks on the other hand had good stick technique and kung fu. But if that were all that they had, it doesn't support the reasoning of sending such a large force to destory the temple. From deduction, it must be because the monks hgad powerful chi that could shield the temple from conventional ballistic weapons. You need arrays of cannon to breach their shields.

"Indeed, if there were this magic, then why couldn't the government hire it too? Where are the pro-gov't magicians? And if they were so powerful, why didn't the Chinese take over the world centuries ago?"

It takes a long time to train these "magicians". you need a type of training and philosophical thinking that run contrary to the way soldiers are trained. The herbs they use are rare and expensive. Plus you need to have a certain genetic disposition to have the training successful. According the military (as today) adopted scientific methods that can be more consitently replicated. The chinese couldn't take ober the world, because the monk's thinking is about peace and good will not about global conquest. chi based techniques is not a weapon where you can pull a trigger, it is about the person and his /her way of life.

"This puts the nail in the coffin of your arguments. Gov't troops that were not large in number? How many troops would you say was 'not large?' And what do you think the number of gov't troops was?"

I was saying that government troops armed with semi-automatic cross bows weren't large in numbers. They form a speciallyn trained task force to hunt down the chi experts. Of course the run of the mill monks will fall to conventional techniques. But it is the master that one must fear.

"Furthermore, the Chinese never replaced their archers. Indeed, it is interesting that as they developed rockets, guns, etc. that they mixed all the ballistic technologies together and didn't change tactics much."

Yes it is interesting isn't. rockets, guns, cannon, semi automatic cross bows, just to fight off a band of renegade monks. The answer is chi. A bow and arrow would find it difficult to hit something 100s of feet in the air flying at high speed. But rockets can. That's why we have surface to air missiles to shoot down planes. In china, there were no planes at that time, why build surface to air rockets?

[Glimmer]

"100s of feet in the air flying at high speed" - Ego, u referring to chi men being able to do such stunts?

Lol.

You know, I can see why you would want to believe in such myths and folk legends, it makes the world seem better then it is. Every culture has folklore, exagerated stories handed down through generations - they are usually metaphors to teach you about how to approach life, do not take the content literally.

Unfortunately even chi men are human, humans cannot gain godly abilities - not even through thousands of years of training.

[Feng]

Ego, it seems that you are condradicting yourself (correct me if i'm wrong)
why would the chinese have developed the semi-automatic cross bow when you know from western medieval history that one shot is sufficient to stop a knight fully clad in armour at a great distance. It must be because the chinese had to hit a target that is incredibly agile and is armoured with something that is far stronger than iron. Nothing in those days besides kung fu practitioners seething in chi could achieve that

it sounds like you think they invented the repeating crossbow specifically to fight Shaolin monks, but didn't you say that they were

because the monk's thinking is about peace and good will not about global conquest

in your former reply i get the idea that the monks really liked to go to war, i only know about the emperor asking for the monks to help him fight off some 'japanese' pirates, (forgot which emperor that was exactly). Besides that, they didn't like to get involved with government affairs. And remained in their monastery (except when their temple was attacked and burned down)

Yes it is interesting isn't. rockets, guns, cannon, semi automatic cross bows, just to fight off a band of renegade monks. The answer is chi. A bow and arrow would find it difficult to hit something 100s of feet in the air flying at high speed. But rockets can. That's why we have surface to air missiles to shoot down planes. In china, there were no planes at that time, why build surface to air rockets?

wow the chinese developed heat seaking missiles to shoot down flying monks to be honest i don't think they were that usefull to shoot something out of the sky, but since they had explosive power might be handy to damage troops that are packed together or something big like a city wall or so.

But i have to agree with you saying that science cannot explain why constants eg: G, c etc are behaving the way they do under certain circumstances. They are just parts to make the equations work and by that why a flying monk would also come back to the ground after jumping in to the air

peace...may the chi be with you

[TenTigers]

I wanted to ad two things; first Jacky Chan can run up a wall. He does it in a corner and takes two steps and over the wall. I know he also takes a few takes to do this without falling back onto a mattress, but he still does it. We've all seen the out takes. You can see how this can be exaggerrated over time and like playing telephone, or if anyone has seen "Sgt, York" with Gary Cooper, where Sgt York saves his men by taking out a group of Germans in a bunker that were pinning them down with machinegun fire. As the story goes from man to man, the story eventually ends up saying that he captured an entire infantry battalion and the Kaiser. So that is one real example.
The thing about the Boxer rebellion, from what I've been told, is that the few people who were able to do real san-da performed miraculous feats. However, there is serious training required to 'house a spirit' within yourself. If this is attempted by a non-adept, as was the case, the spirit will not only leave, but also destroy the body and mind of the one 'possessed". Many people have tried, not only with San-Da, but with Ceremonial Magick, such as followers of Aliester Crowley, with the results being a total mental breakdown.

[Glimmer]

I've heard numerous things about the 'housing of spirits' being at the top level of some internal styles - not sure what to make of it, although no doubt through enough meditation it is possible to dissolve the 'self'...not sure about tapping into other dimensions though. Either way, it is suspiciously close to the whole 'cult' thing we have to be mindful of when dealing with alternative cultures and martial arts.

You could argue that people like Alistair Crowley suffered some kind of mental illness before messing with the 'dark arts', perhaps seriously attempting such claivoyance is a symptom of delusion to begin eith.

Who knows, I ain't no doc

Isn't San Da sparring?

[ctoepker]

Glimmer...

Originally posted by Glimmer
I've heard numerous things about the 'housing of spirits' being at the top level of some internal styles - not sure what to make of it, although no doubt through enough meditation it is possible to dissolve the 'self'...not sure about tapping into other dimensions though.

You might find this "Willing Possesion" discussion interesting.

Ego, not even the ancient Chinese who you purport to understand so well gave chi the preminence you have. §Ú·Q§AÀ³¸Ó¦h¦h¬ã¨s§a! »Ý_nªº¸Ü¥i¥H¤¶²Ð¤@¨Ç¥i¾aªº«h®Æ. Until then, you've only built a conclusion that discounts all inconvient facts, information or observations. Good luck out there in the real world!

CT
(to read the Chinese, make sure you have the language packs installed in your browser. Then right click the page and select Encoding - Big5)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Feng,

I'm not contradicting myself. The monks acted in self defence. What else could they have done but fight when thousands of government troops armed with their latest weapons march to their door step and threatend to burn their monetary down.

No the chinese did not have heat seeking missiles. They did have rockets that were launched from bamboo tubes. The come in packs of 4 to 8 and are carried by foot soldiers. When there is an incoming from the skies, the troops will create a "wall" of rockets as the monks come in for their strafing run.

Yes, some monks jump, others levitate and can cover great distances at high speed. They may not even acclerate but rather instantanously reach their desired speed level. That my be why they're not affected by accleration due to gravity.

Ten Tigers:

That's right, even up to the boxer rebellion, there were still some masters who posessed chi skills. But I must say, the age of chi had already passed and replaced by modern technology. Fighting lines have been killed off, their minds have been compromized by opium, and sacred texts that hold the key in controlling the spirits have been burnt.

The chinese did have the right idea, they knew that it would take too long to train enough people to become chi kung masters. They took the short cut by assimilating disembodied beings. However, it is not that the disembodied beings that were evil and caused them to go crazy, but rather, it was their minds who were not exposed to high levels of chi. Their minds over reacted, much like an allegic reaction some people have to pollen, bee stings and the like. The worse cases resulted in death. The crazed ones roamed the country side for decades that followed, becoming blood suckers and crazed killers.

Even for those who were able to contain the spirits, they lack the practice in focusing their chi. Could stop a punch, perhaps even bladed weapons, but bullets are a totally different story. It's a challenge even for an expert and there weren't any left at the time of the rebellion.

As you know, instead of a glorious victory, the chinese met their blood bath. If the outcome were the reverse, I might be talking to you about the possible use of "scientific technology" in warfare and I migh meet with this response - why use a gun when you can use chi.

[Glimmer]

Ctoepker,

Thanks for that link - I just spent a good 40mins engrossed in it. Very interesting on a number of levels...make me wish I studied anthropology along with cultural studies

Any idea if this sort of practice exists in hakka arts? If so, I might devise some tests for when my sigung comes to town...if I'm brave enough. Lol.

[ctoepker]

Originally posted by Glimmer
Ctoepker,
Any idea if this sort of practice exists in hakka arts? If so, I might devise some tests for when my sigung comes to town...if I'm brave enough. Lol.

Sorry for the delay in response. The web site I wanted to refer you to went down...

Check this article out...religious movements in China.

You may be surprised to find that the Hakka aren't all that different from other Chinese groups. []

CT

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
you have enough time and enough practice at something, and enough lack of sanity to think you have a limit..you might break some barriers people think are not possible to pass.

I agree