Pointing to the Moon Part 1:

[yenhoi]

I would like to start a discussion concerning the topic of “Range.”

I will break the broad topic Range into five sub-topics:

“STANDING” – Out of range:

“EXTENDED (WEAPONS)”:

“STANDING”:

“CLINCH/TRAPPING”:

“GROUND”:

I don’t want to strictly define these terms/concepts/theories. Just start getting some commonly understood terms together that we can all refer to and understand easily in the coming weeks.

What do you think? What are important terms/concepts/theories to mention while “defining” these ones?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi




“STANDING”:

“GROUND”:



I would go so far as to narrow it down to those two. All of the elements discussed will fall into them.

Standing

- punching

-kicking

-mobility
---stance
---rhythm

-clinch/trapping
---throws/sweeps
---hip control

-infighting
---knees/elbows


Ground

positional dominance

control

submissions/breaks/chokes

standing back up
---standing up efficiently, reducing your chance of taking damage

the guard
---multiple attack situations

Is this along the lines of what you are looking for?

[Ironwind]

Think that you should have a short transition between standing and ground. You dont just poof and then you're on the ground. You fall or are pushed in some way like Sand Da's Shearing, or slipped or thrown to the ground.

Falling:
1) Basic falling technique ( that thing with the slapping the ground)

2) Manuvering your opponent to take the fall for you

3) Turning a fall into an instant joint lock, dislocation, or break.

Rolling or somersaulting with enemy limb

4 kinds
1)No hands rolling head or leg locks (with legs)

2)no legs ( rolling locks that involve you staning after falling)

3)full body (hands and legs at use)

4)pinning rolling techniques (gets seperated from rest because though some people consider any submission a pin it's not. A pin applies restriction a body part using applied pressure for another.)

[Vash]

Throwing would constitute a standing-range technique. Falling would, too.

Chalk them both up into the infighting section of standing.

Sevenstar round-house kicked the correct in the chops.

[Ironwind]

True it would considered as in-fighting, but as position wise and how it should be teached. Seperating falling from the more balanced feeling of standing. Not to mention even Yin and Yang have an inbetween. It would seperate from standing or Ground fighting because your not during either. The complicating questioning of where it stands should be disolved by giving it it's own sub-title.

[yenhoi]

“STANDING” – Out of range: I want to use this as a ‘range’ in order to discuss things like reality self-defense, awareness, pre-fight and post-fight and multiple opponent scenarios. Concealing weapons, pre-deploying weapons, clothing, ring strategy, etc.

“EXTENDED (WEAPONS)”: I really just want to use weapons as a modifier to the other ‘ranges.’ So I felt it necessary to emphasize and include it.

I would like to keep Trapping, Clinching, Infighting, Takedowns, and Throws separate from striking. This leaves three Ranges: “STANDING”; “CLINCH”: and “GROUND.” Remember that these ‘terms’ will refer to very broad interrelated topics.

Falling technique has to do with correct positioning, movement, and motion and is a discussion for another thread I think.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ironwind
True it would considered as in-fighting, but as position wise and how it should be teached. Seperating falling from the more balanced feeling of standing. Not to mention even Yin and Yang have an inbetween. It would seperate from standing or Ground fighting because your not during either. The complicating questioning of where it stands should be disolved by giving it it's own sub-title.

you should not be trained in throwing until you have learned how to fall, making falling like a subset of throwing. I would group it there.

However, I can see it being classified as it's own group also.


From now on, we've gotta make sure that the correct wears a mouth guard, eh?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi

I would like to keep Trapping, Clinching, Infighting, Takedowns, and Throws separate from striking. This leaves three Ranges: “STANDING”; “CLINCH”: and “GROUND.” Remember that these ‘terms’ will refer to very broad interrelated topics.

The clinch

IMO this is the area of real fighting. we are in eachother's faces and control can go either way. This is the area I like to operate in, as I can throw, takedown, knee, elbow and punch from the clinch.

One thing to consider is position. While in the clinch, I want to completely control you, allowing myself the ability to launch whatever attack I wish. I like the plomb that we use in MT, and I also like the good ole collar and elbow. By maintaining control of the head, I can determine where your body goes.

I want to keep my hands behind the crown of your head, and my elbows in as close to your neck as possible. This makes it harder for an opponent to lift his head and easier for me to control him. clinch training is essential practice as that's how you will learn how to regain good position and keep things in your favor. In judo, this is referred to as kumikata, or grip fighting.

When I have a gi to grap onto, I like to hold both lapels, as I can launch most of my main attacks from there. your grip can establish dominance here also, so I want to control your grip when possible. let's say, you are grabbing my lapel and I don't like it - I break the grip. But, instead of just letting the arm free, I hold onto it - now, I control your arm and I have my other arm on your lapel/other elbow, etc. I now have an advantage because I have more control of you than you do of me. When I am ready to attack, I will throw the arm out of my way, hopefully giving me the space and time I need to attack.

While you are getting jerked around in the clinch, it can be easy to lose track of your base, making it easier for you to be swept. hiza guruma, de ashi barai, sasae tsuri komi ashi, etc. are all very usable techniques here can be a quick way to get your opponent down, giving you a chance to run, face the next attacker, etc.

I guess we can touch on knees and elbows later.

[rogue]

“EXTENDED (WEAPONS)”: I really just want to use weapons as a modifier to the other ‘ranges.’ So I felt it necessary to emphasize and include it.

If you have a weapon and I don't it still boils down to close and take you out, or I run my ass off.

IMO this is the area of real fighting.

For me it's to the outside but still very up close and personel. 7* is right though where the real fight is and where it gets serious.

[yenhoi]

Thanks SevenStar!!

Basically, regardless of specific range, my goal is to position myself so that its easier for me to: 1) Gain control or More control, 2) Directly manipulate my opponent(s)to affect more control or 3) Strike or otherwise damage my opponent(s).

The game of positioning, controlling, manipulating, and damaging is different for each range:

“STANDING” – Although fighters have different attributes that might allow them to dictate the fight, in general no person has any means to directly control or manipulate his opponent at this range. This is the realm of striking, evasion, and entering (moving from a non-clinch scenario to a clinch-type scenario.)

“CLINCH” - I agree that this is the range of real fighting also. This range is also where differences in individual attributes can become great advantages very quickly. In this range, like 7* mentioned, there are many means for fighters to control, manipulate, and damage each other. Nearly all throws and takedowns happen in this range, and this is how we ‘move’ to the ground.

“GROUND” – I think the ground is an equally important range of real fighting because in this range there are just as many if not more means for fighters to control, manipulate, and damage each other. In this range I think it is easier to position yourself to capitalize on any of those elements.

My question now in regards to range is: what is the best range/position for controlling, manipulating, and damaging your opponent?

[rogue]

My question now in regards to range is: what is the best range/position for controlling, manipulating, and damaging your opponent?

In real close with good position, either on the ground or standing up.

[SevenStar]

Play with it and see - that's something that will vary from person to person. It's definitely NOT standing, but either clinch or the ground. For myself, I find that it's easier in the clinch. for one thing, my bjj sucks, but other than that, I have a good base while standing, and my build lends to that. I'm a sweeper, so I use constant leg attacks to keep my opponent off balance and moving until I can throw him.

On the ground, I can control someone decently from the guard or if I have them pinned, but I'm WAY more comfortable in a clinch.

[Ironwind]

I wish I could help you with clinch part.
I'm only in this range for a second at a time.
After that i'm out again coming in with a head blow or trying to kick your knees from under you.
(also on the side,7*
I once played the Mortal Kombat game and a character I played with dilivered a handsweep.
Alot of the game was real MA. My question is does the hand sweep exist?)

And again sorry.

[SevenStar]

can you describe it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi


Basically, regardless of specific range, my goal is to position myself so that its easier for me to: 1) Gain control or More control, 2) Directly manipulate my opponent(s)to affect more control or 3) Strike or otherwise damage my opponent(s).

My question now in regards to range is: what is the best range/position for controlling, manipulating, and damaging your opponent?

The more and more I think about this, the more I want to move from saying ground or clinch, to merely saying clinch. you can ground and pound, knee from side mount, etc. But I have more options available in the clinch. MT uses at least 5 different knee strikes, to various target, all of which are applicable in the clinch, and at least 5 elbows that are applicable. I guess the real issue is control. You may have less control of the opponents overall, as he still has his mobility, but I guess there'd be a tradeoff anywhere. Also, from the clinch, you're in a position where you can most easily disengage, remain clinched or go to the ground as you see fit.