grabbing strength

[backbreaker]

How important is grip strength in internal martial arts? Many applications involve grabbing the opponent.( Like grabbing their fingers and hand)

If you have a strong grip can it possibly improve your ability to relax your shoulders and keep them mobile and not tense? Or is alot of tension in the hands bad?

What are the applications of grip strength and grabbing and what are important elements of grabbing the opponent?

[crumble]

Pulling moves are so important in IMA. But strength isn't emphasized as much as fast, adaptable technique. The goal is to be able to quickly shock the opponent with a pull, but not necessarily to keep maintaining a particular grip. When you keep a grip you are susceptable to chinna.

From my experience, the main way to keep a solid but adaptable grip is to emphasize using the last two fingers (ring and pinky). The muscles that control these fingers are contained solely within the forarm, they don't cross over or influence the elbow. So the tension pretty much remains in the forearm. (The same grip is used in Japanese swordfighting for the same reason.)

Hope that helps,

-c

[backbreaker]

Thanks crumble.

[Ironwind]

Strength, doesn't hurt having. Turning the hips also helpful in giving the illusion of strength in the arms.
Strength just can't be a "arm" or "leg" thing it's the full us of the body that defines strength in my book.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We seldom "grab", more often we hold the thumb fixed and twist the forearm creating a friction lock.. the twisting of the forearm follows the turning of the waist in the general flow of a technique.. it also leaves the elbow much more range to execute follow-up techniques.. We do train "grabbing strength" but for much more diverse purposes.. we toss sand bags (10-15 lbs.) and catch them in a typical Eagle-claw fashion, but this trains a lot more than just gripping strength.. Typically, the applications are too quick to take the time to make a complete "full-hand grasp", too dynamic to limit the range of motion that is confined by full-hand grabs.. we use the two middle fingers and occasionally the pinky, the index finger points the direction of the application and by not constricting it, keeps Qi in the hand..

Another useful technique is to intercept the opponent's wrist (your left hand to their right wrist), place your right hand on your left wrist and while emphasizing "peng" and roundness of the arms, twist the waist and spine counter-clockwise.. smoothly slip your right elbow under their left (now extended) arm and lift their arm as you twist.. this will compromise their foundation, mis-align their spine and generally pull them off balance.. if they successfully resist or sink, you will notice the set-up for a great shoulder strike or Parting the Wild Horses Mane.. Being a one handed grasp, this works well in competitions..

Be well..

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know much about tai chi, but is there ven a lot of grabbing in it? I thought tai chi was msotly about using the opponents energy against them?

[dwid]

From my experience, the main way to keep a solid but adaptable grip is to emphasize using the last two fingers (ring and pinky). The muscles that control these fingers are contained solely within the forarm, they don't cross over or influence the elbow. So the tension pretty much remains in the forearm. (The same grip is used in Japanese swordfighting for the same reason.)

I'd like to hear some physiological and anatomical evidence for this. The flexors of the interphalangeal joints are all either intrinsic to the hand or contained in the anterior forearm. What muscles in the upper arm flex digits?

I'm just curious as to whether I'd overlooked some important muscles in anatomy.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement with what's been said so far. Grabbing is a kinetic thing in the IMA. Gripping is more static and probably has more of a place in very specific grappling applications.

[Toby]

No evidence, but just bending your fingers moves "stuff" up in your forearm. Doing it now, I get a different part of my forearm moving for each finger with the most easily recognized areas of movement being on the outside of my forearm just below my elbow. Surely these are muscles moving? No anatomy book handy so I can't check.

[dwid]

That's my point.

To my knowledge, none of these muscles flexes the elbow joint.

[qiphlow]

we don't always get an opportunity to grab per se--
i feel that it's best to be sticky and listen well and when the opponent is in a place where he or she doesn't have any room to move, then one can apply more strength/power to the hold. if you come on too strong at first, you've committed to an action and have left yourself in the postion of no room to move.

[backbreaker]

So perhaps listening skill , neutralizing, and maybe even reversing holds onto the opponent is more important than grip strength then at first contact

[crumble]

Did a quick google image search on "forearm muscles"... Pretty interesting stuff out there.

Some highlights:

This suggests most forearm muscles cross the elbow joint, but the thumb and index finger attach higher up the

http://137.222.110.150/calnet/muscul...%20muscles.jpg

similar idea here, but bones not shown...

http://www.paddleball.com/paddles/Ac...r/anatomy1.jpg

http://www.vancouvermassage.ca/image...ms/forearm.jpg

Well anyway, hope it helps. Time to get off this **** computer...

-c

[Toby]

Originally posted by dwid
The flexors of the interphalangeal joints are all either intrinsic to the hand or contained in the anterior forearm. What muscles in the upper arm flex digits?

I should learn to read .

[dwid]

This suggests most forearm muscles cross the elbow joint, but the thumb and index finger attach higher up the

Actually, it suggests that the extensors of the carpal bones (anatomical wrist) go beyond the elbow. The Interphalangeal and Metacarpophalangeal Flexors would all be on the palm side of the hand and forearm and would be the only muscles relevant to grip. It appears on the items you posted that none of these extends past the forearm.

Anyway, this is a very technical argument, and I feel it is taking us away from the spirit of the initial question. So, I apologize if this line of discussion has been disruptive or not helpful.

[qiphlow]

backbreaker:
my own personal feeling is that joint locks and such work much better if the "lockee" is as unaware as possible of the lock (bear with me here...) when playing push hands, for example: if you are circling at 5 mph and suddenly attack at 50 mph, what does this do to your opponent? usually they will get all tense. if you apply the 5mph/50mph rule to attempting a jointlock/hold/etc., your technique may not work because the opponent may go all tense on you and then it's force vs. force--ok for some, as long as your opponent is physically weaker than thou.....
i think it's better to be sticky, listen, and follow the opponent to a place where he more or less locks himself--then you only need a little of your own strength to maintain the lock (and if your lock is good, you won't need a lot of strength!). and...in a metaphysical sense, you are not that person's adversary at that point--you are only assisting them to go where they were going already!
so, in a nutshell, yes--i do think that cultivation of the sticky/following/listening skill(s) is MUCH better than trying to rely on physical strength, since sooner or later, everyone loses some physical strength.