grabbing strength

[Ray Pina]

I think the idea of "grabbing" someone -- with the hand -- is rediculous. Anyone with know-how will get right out.

How can your thumb and forefinger be stronger than my shoulder pulling my arm back in? Or actually, turning my arm and pushing toward you attacking your own wrist. If you don't let go it breaks.

I think locking is the way to go, using the forearms and elbows. Hitting is the hands job. Asking it to lock onto a much stronger body part/joint-muscle system is sending him out to die.

[backbreaker]

Ah, yes qiphlow. I have heard of the 5mph to 50 from other people . They called it going from 0 to 100. So you're saying that you nuetralize the opponent giving him nothing to land on or grab, then following and anticipating while thay are unaware, then you combine these with adding power, adding a little bit more and more in different directions until they are screwed.

[backbreaker]

I think mainly you woud grab their hand or fingers, it seems to me that that could better than no grab. As people have mentioned I guess I shouldn't just go up and grab them or they can break my arm with peng.

[Ray Pina]

Any time someone goes to grab your finger, just aim a bit higher and squeez your fist, you grab theirs.

Also, the wrist has mobilty. A finger grab can be countereg by first going with it at the wrist and then going with it at the elbow. Think peach palm ala Ba Gua

[backbreaker]

Cool, E-fist.

[Ray Pina]

My teacher tought it to me ... it's remarkably easy. The only weakness, you have to see it coming.

[dwid]

Still, I think having a vice-like grip has some very obvious advantages in self-defense, maybe not in a ring fight, but normal people have a tendency to freeze up when they feel trapped... some kind of left over animal instinct.

[qiphlow]

backbreaker: yup--something like that. the basic idea i think is to not get their guard up. you have to be quite subtle with your movements, especially if your partner has some skill, too. another advantage to being soft is that it's much easier to change the technique if needed. i also like what dwid said--that "having a vise-like grip has some very obvious advantages"--this also is true. i just prefer the soft and sticky approach because it works better for me (i ain't scwarzzenegger, ya know?).

[dwid]

qiphlow,

I'll be the first to admit that, while I do think grip strength is important for a number of things that I enjoy (weightlifting top among them), deep down I just like the idea of having incredibly strong hands and any justification for continuing to train toward that goal is good enough for me.

[backbreaker]

Yeah, I saw a video of an old shaolin master who did standing on one finger with his feet up in the air lightly resting on the wall meditation. He had strong finger strikes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The grip doesn't have to be that strong.. intercept your oponents punch from the outside, pushing their arm across your centerline and grabbing the wrist with the thumb on the bottom.. as you twist your waist toward the direction you pushed their arm slip your elbow under their's, now you have the wrist/arm extended, wrist controlled, elbow controlled with upward pressure (hyper-extending the elbow).. in this scenario the grip is used to direct the incoming energy for your advantage, not relying on crushing strength.. You can even go over the top of their elbow with yours, then do a Chen-style reverse shoulder/elbow roll which applys Qinna and rending pressure to their shoulder (usually causing them to bow forward into a potential knee to the face)..

We seldom use gripping as a full-force application, primarily we use it to lead into a Qinna application.. even in grasping sparrow's tail the grip used to rotate the opponents upper arm is moderate, with the thumb (full-length) applying moderate pressure on the inside of the upper arm about 1" above the elbow point and the palm cradling the elbow and with the fingers pulling the elbow toward the inside.. if you control the wrist with your left hand (depending on the side which is attacking) the opponent will yield outward and down with only moderate strength.. it has something to do with the pressure point on the upper arm where the thumb is pressing..

Just another perspective.. Be well...

[Merryprankster]

How can your thumb and forefinger be stronger than my shoulder pulling my arm back in? Or actually, turning my arm and pushing toward you attacking your own wrist. If you don't let go it breaks.

No offense, but I've met more than one or two freaks in my years of wrestling that have grip strength that makes it VERY difficult to perform standard wrist grab escapes on them. You really can't underestimate grip strength because it's usually the weakest link in the chain. If your grip breaks, then the rest of what you're doing frequently becomes kind of useless and may even open you up. This obviously depends, but hey...

Do you guys use "hooks?" Most wrestling control grips from standing aren't "grabbing"--you make your whole hand like a meathook and use that instead to get your moves.

Just curious.

[backbreaker]

I use hooks in Taiji applications. They often seem to often invole moves that use both hands. One hand would hook the opponent and pull backward, and at the same time the palm of the other arm would push forward( or actually sideways or many directions) on a point on the opponent. From there elbow strikes are added and also use the elbow to put the structure on top of, and down on the opponent. The advantage is decreased risk of injury to the thumbs especially if intercepting the opponent right? Also many moves use grabiing the wrist or hand and hooking and pulling down the opponents elbow.

But also there are many techniques which get a hold of the opponent and grab the fingers or hands. And it does seem to me there are many things that can happen from there, but if someone is crushing your knuckles and bones together who is especially strong it would be very difficult to break out or escape and get your structure back to return to and reattack your opponent, but i don't know. Often trying to escape a grip can end up with you in a qinna lock. But antways I myself feel that I can pick things up without stiffening or straining my shoulders as much if I have a strong grip and hold

Many application though do not use grabbing and use pressing or twisting lightly a few inches on directions where it is hard for the opponent to resist his joints being slighty collapsed inwards breaking his structure, and from there adding power from the body like emptying to one side and adding structure to another side in a smooth fashion while maintaining central eguilibrium between the legs but with all the joints loose and responsive but also stable and not being over extended beyond the structure. I think it's possible though if you try to pull them into you with your arm you could actually be pulled in and thrown out due to structure and all parts moving together. And pushing away will only bring qinna twisting holds into play like locking the elbow in an upwards direction adding power, or putting structure down on the opponent's elbow and then adding empty and full body power and opening and closing.

[backbreaker]

Also aren't there different grips for different weapons? Like for sword, you hold the sword a bit diagonally in your grip. It might not be grip stenght but the wrist flexibility? But then it seems to me, when issueing power into the sword grip strenth may come into play, as well as full body strength to make the sword vibrate and shake and bend in the center and out the tip.

[backbreaker]

From what I can figure out, grabbing has to do alot with twisting.