The Ultimate Okinawan Martial Arts Thread

[rogue]

Farmers while they were masters smart ass. It'd be interesting to see what economic status most masters came from. I believe Shimabuku father owned his farm and also a butcher shop. So was he part of the Okinawan middle class? Shimabuku also owned a small concrete manufacturing firm. So besides farming he was a business man. Just wondering as how much effect economics had on allowing some the time and training to master their arts.

Air punching is OK to check form, but I've noticed in schools that over do it how the punch looks is the goal rather than checking the body mechanics.

Some more info on Shimabuku

[Vash]

That's an excellent article.

[rogue]

That guy is pretty interesting in the Isshinryu world. I like that sanchin testing picture he included.

From Rob Redmonds Site

What makes things worse for this legend is that the Okinawan men who passed karate down to us were mostly of the noble classes, not peasant farmers. Look at Azato, Itosu, Matsumura, and Sakugawa. All four of these men held high positions in the Okinawan government and were in the Ofu (Okinawan nobility). If men with swords were also the karate men, it sort of shoots a big hole in the theory that peasants used karate to fend off men with swords.

[Vash]

Love that guy. It's always cool when someone actually holds my viewpoints, but can explain them in a logical and sensical way.

Plus, the picture at the top of that article has Funakoshi sittin' pretty at about 3 feet tall.

[Vash]

ttt

[Vash]

Analysis of the Okinawan Bubishi

48 Figures of the Okinawan Bubishi

Two very interesting reads. I haven't the translation which Mr. Camara uses, but I have read it, and have photocopies of the vital point illustrations. Once you get past Camara's sometimes broken English (being he's Brazilian) the article is very interesting.

Heck, here's a general link to that site .

More to come.

[manofkent]

Now take it easy, i dont want to insult anyone here. but i did Wado Ryu for 10yrs, and receved my black belt at asst sensi.

Then i started looking at sothern chinese martial arts and my skill and disipline grew ten fold in a matter of months. to look back on karate it all seem so basic and external.

what do you guys think?

[Vash]

Well, sounds like it just wasn't your style. Or, could've been a bad instructor.

As for the external issue . . . you say that like it's a bad thing.

In any event, Wadoryu is a Japanese martial art, not Okinawan, and as such is only going to have a passing resemblence to Okinawan karate (well, that and the Jujutsu influence).

[Shaolindynasty]

The oppisite is true for me. I started studing Shoeri Ryu about a month ago and have learned that karate is not all about stiffness and screaming. I really enjoy it. I wish I could add more to the conversation but I don't know allot about okinawan karate since I am a newbie

[Vash]

http://www.goju-ryu.info/

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/

Of course, these are also available in the Great Links thread, but I felt that it would be good to have a handy-dandy reference point before I started another discussion on the Bubishi.

Peace.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by manofkent
Now take it easy, i dont want to insult anyone here. but i did Wado Ryu for 10yrs, and receved my black belt at asst sensi.

Then i started looking at sothern chinese martial arts and my skill and disipline grew ten fold in a matter of months. to look back on karate it all seem so basic and external.

what do you guys think?

That's because the Chuan Shu you wound up doing was more like real Okinawan Karate. Are people joking with this Japanese Karate BS? I mean Wado Ryu, a style from a guy who didn't like the diluted stuff he was taught from Funakoshi so he decided to mix in JJJ to patch up the holes left from the omission of tuite in Funakoshi's Shotokan?

If you would have done a real style of karate like Isshin, Uechi, Goju or Shorin then you would still be doing it. Trust me. If you decided to switch to a Chinese art, especially a Southern Style you would have seen so many similarities that you wouldn't have switched completely.

Don't compare Wado, Japanese Goju/$hito/Shorinji Ryu, Kyokushinkai or Shotokan to good Okinawan Karate. It's like comparing a Fannie Mae home to a 10 million dollar mansion in Beverly Hills.

All styles of karate were NOT created equal.

['MegaPoint]

It seems that Tatsuo felt he had mastered the techniques of both Shorin and Goju. His kata list looks like an abbreviated Shotokan or Sh ito Ryu forms curriculum. How can you love simple Sanchin, which is bad for your health, yet diss the simple Pinan which is good for teaching fundamentals? How can you learn the advanced lessons of Gojushiho (or Shorin Ryu) if it is not part of your kata list? How can you claim that what you teach is an amalgam of the best signature techniques of both Goju and Shorin, yet omit their most important advanced forms? WTF is Sunsu? How long did he live? You gotta love that hard Ibuki Sanchin!

You either do one or the other IMO. Goju and Shorin are alike but different in approach and methodology. Both take a lifetime to master, so why purport that the style you do is the best of both worlds? It just can't be. They are both complete systems, not quick fix styles. Most Isshin stylist I've known also seem to emulate this journeyman philosophy. They understand what they had been missing when they enter a good Uechi, Goju or Shorin dojo.

Gojushiho is a very good form. Next to Kusanku, my favorite. Many lessons on body change and advancing defensive offense are in it. It's about hitting on the move and beating your opponent to the punch. There are ground techs, throws and dirty tricks inherent in it. It's advanced street fighting. Goju forms such as Kururunfa and even mid-level forms such as Shisochin, contain may tuite lessons, facts that an Isshin stylist would never know if they didn't train for years in those forms. Also, why would he choose Wansu, a minor Tomari form with very few novel techs, yet overlook Patsai Sho/Dai and Rohai?

I think as far as the Shimabukuru family was concerned, he was a mid-level practitioner who never really progressed. He does neither NahaTe nor ShuriTe. Tuite is not complicated and it entails more than grabbing the throat or ripping flesh. Why would Advincula teach combat Judo if he understood true tuite? The answer is he doesn't, and never has.

It's a good article. I understand why many of my Isshin students are surprised when they learn the Shorin I've been taught. They were introduced to Okinawan karate, but they were never able to explain why something was the way it was or never had it explained to them. Maybe because of the abbreviated kata and curriculum that is part of Isshin they just weren't armed with the complete knowledge.

The kata they do is very simple compared to the original forms. Simple not in application, but in that many techs were deleted or were never known.

[Vash]

Dang good posts, 'Mega Point. Good to see you back on the boards.

Oh, about Sanchin, here's and article about a testing of Isshinryu's Sanchin in regards to health benefits/detriments. What are your thoughts on it?

Also, interesting points about Shimabuku/Isshinryu. In regards to the abbreviated list of forms which are practiced, isn't that more because he didn't learn all of the forms of the systems? From what I've heard and read, he included all of the forms that he learned. BUT, there's evidence of other kata in Sunsu.

Would it be fair to say that Isshinryu isn't so much the best of both styles, but Shimabuku's understanding of the lessons he'd received?

Again, very interesting points. Gonna hafta do MORE research on karate now. Dang. And I was just getting into the whole drunken boxing thing.

[Vash]

Okay, let me preface this by saying that this isn't the best example I've ever seen of good Uechiryu Karate. It doesn't suck, for the most part. At leaswt they go at it full contact w/no pads. But the sets they do, not up to par, IMNSHO.

Videos of Uechiryu Karate

['MegaPoint]

Yeah, been training and doing school stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love Isshin ryu, and totally dig the idea of mixing Goju and Shorin. I just know from Shorin experience that kata such as Gojushiho teach many adavnced principles.

Every Isshin Ryu guy (or girl) I've known was awesome and very well mannered. I have the utmost respect for this ryuha. I am by no means of Shinshi Shimabuku's caliber and probably never will be. I agree with your assertion that he did understand other forms and decided to maybe detail their lessons in other ways, maybe by creating Sunsu.

Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Thanks for the compliments and keep the good Okinawan karate posts coming.

Good lookin' out...