Luo Guang Yu

[German Bai Lung]

In an other thread MantisSifuFW says:

Master Luo Guangyu, on the other hand, began to blend Meihua, Qixing and Guangbang forming his own Tanglang. Hong Kong Tanglang is not Qixing or Meihua, it is a mixture. Today some HK styles call themselves Qixing but this is not either historically or technically accurate.

very interesting! It makes sence in some way. Where do you get this infos from? What makes you believe this?

It would be a logic explaination for the differences between Mainland and HK 7*....

[MantisifuFW]

Shifu Wolfgram,

My research is based upon both old writings at the time and upon research with mainland Tanglang practitioners of both Qixing and Meihua.

Writing from the 1950's in Hong Kong as well as interviews with mainland practitioners and technical evaluation of sets say clearly that Master Luo's Tanglang was about 60% Qixing in structure, 30% Meihua and 10% Guangbang or "shiny board".

Master Luo was a fierce fighter and brillant Tanglang Shifu. He innovated technique and training methods and accordingly created sets to preserve these ideas. In doing so, he both altered and institutionalized the Tanglang he knew. For example:

White Ape exits cave and White Ape steals the peach in HK Tanglang bears no resembelance to Mainland sets by the same name. However Mantis exits cave (HK) version looks nearly identical to White Ape exits cave mainland version. There is no "Mantis exits cave" set in any mainland version of Tanglang. In fact, mainlanders say of those sets, "Mantis' do not exit caves nor do they steal peaches". They recognize the HK Mantis sets as versions of their White Ape sets also. It would seem clear that this rearrangement of sets occured as Master Luo forged his version of Tanglang.

This in no way impunes HK Tanglang. I prefer and practice its tight and fast movements drawn from Meihua, higher mobile stance work, (apparently an innovation of Master Luo) and long range techniques, (Qixing). I just believe that research should be done and am doing it, no matter the outcome. I am always initially skeptical of any research done by any group where EVERY conclusion is..."therefore our group is the greatest, most legitimate, and best". That is not true research, it is simply a search for justification.

There is other historical evidence that supports my position. I have the lists of what sets Master Luo himself actually taught in his curriculum and more but I am working on a book where I will present my research in a more complete fashion. It will be surprizing to many.

Those of us who do Tanglang research differ in opinions and in our conclusions but this is the nature of research in any human endeavor. If I am proven wrong in any respect I will thank those providing me and the world of Tanglang the information. I look forward to the time when we can all get together and share! (This is what the Mantis Quartely is all about).

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

MantisifuFW,

I am certain that to a person those of us who are serious about our Tang Lang and/or share LGY in their lineage, want to hear and know the facts about the origins and history of our system regardless their nature so long as they are verifiable.

If you have facts and information to share please continue to do so. Also, I am looking forward to the publication that you mention (your book).

best regards,
UM.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW


This in no way impunes HK Tanglang. I prefer and practice its tight and fast movements drawn from Meihua, higher mobile stance work, (apparently an innovation of Master Luo) and long range techniques, (Qixing). I just believe that research should be done and am doing it, no matter the outcome. I am always initially skeptical of any research done by any group where EVERY conclusion is..."therefore our group is the greatest, most legitimate, and best". That is not true research, it is simply a search for justification.

Those of us who do Tanglang research differ in opinions and in our conclusions but this is the nature of research in any human endeavor. If I am proven wrong in any respect I will thank those providing me and the world of Tanglang the information. I look forward to the time when we can all get together and share! (This is what the Mantis Quartely is all about).

Sifu Cottrell,

well said! I also think, that research is not a matter to find out, whos the best, most legitimate or authentic.
One of my greatest wish is, that most of the Mantis or even Kung Fu Society would see that working together and sharing the knowledge is a good aim for all!
The conclusion you make, if right or wrong, does not lower the great abilities or his merits for Mantis!

I´m looking forward to your book and I am sure it will be a important step for our Mantis Community. Thanks in advance for your work.

[MantisifuFW]

Ursa Major and Bai Lung,

Thank you for your encouragement. It means a great deal as we still live in a time when bitter divisions, negative attitudes and small mindedness are more prevalent than I would like in our art.

I believe that a dedication to objective historical research, gathering as much information, positive and negative, confirming as well as conflicting historical documents, is essential. What the community should firmly reject is one-sided, self-serving and biased research on anyone's part.

The fact is that as Tanglang comes more firmly into the hands of Westerners with each generation, it will inevitably be subjected to Western-style scrutiny. The question is whether or not Tanglang will end up with the kind of shallow reputation some Asian arts have been reduced to in this society or whether it will gain respect as others have. The good part is that we largely will make that decision for ourselves.

We should subject our art to evaluation, organization and research. Instructors that are scrupulous about the art they teach so that it remains definable Tanglang, (the fastest way to destroy Tangling is to make it into JKD, IMHO), competitions that have high standards of excellence, (such as some I have seen in China), and research that is objective and well-presented, (like in the Mantis Quarterly) is the best way to establish, propagate and preserve the art we teach for future generations.

Sorry, guess I got going on my soap box. BTW, the Quarterly just went to the printers!

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Indeed a great topic here. I agreed whole heartedly with Sifu Cottrell on all the points made. I would echo his point on Mantis taking root in the west (Europe and the Americas). We as PM stylists should understand that every region, community or individual has its distinct needs of MA. It is crucial for us to address the needs and at the same time maintain good graspe on our identity. This can only achieve by studying PM histroy and development in its entirity not fragmented pass and establishment. Most of all, the main focus on keeping Mantis as combative art but not a performing art should be held steadfast. This means that fighting ability should always based on realistic and practical experience of every practitioner. It is not about blindly following set curriculums that were developed out of acient times addressing acient problems.

I also firmly believe that Mantis Quarterly is a great project that can help bring our community together. I am glad that Sifu Cottrell has taken the leadership role in developing such a meaningful project. Hopefully, we will see more and more PM stylists, young and old, sharing with and learning from each other regardless.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis108,

Thank you for your support and kind comments.

The necessity of our focus as a fighting art is indeed paramount. Sorry I missed that point. In fact, just yesterday I was having a discussion with a Wushu coach and he focused on exactly that point, that traditional Tanglang is a fighting art and that traditional Wuguan are focus on being fighting schools where wushu is a performance based art.

Excellent point and thank you for making it, in the words of a past president "perfectly clear"!

Steve Cottrell

[cha kuen]

Question.

WHen you say Lau gwan yuk was a fierce fighter... so there was talk that he had real fighting experience right?

Did WHF have real fighrting expereince?

The only reason I say this is because I am constantly finding out how many famous sifus dont have expereince and the most recent one being Eagle Claw Lau Fat Mang, did HE have real fighting expereince? I saw a tape that had 10 seconds of him messing around with someone else and he loked scared and didnt know how to fight. (no disrespect, just repeating what i saw)

[MantisifuFW]

In terms of the kind of fighting experience on the Seven Star side of Northern Mantis:

Li Sanjian was a caravan guard and had combat experience against bandits. (how much of this had to do with Tanglang, I do not know as he was most likely armed to the teeth as anyone in that situation would be). But he did beat a much younger Wang Yongchun and he became Li's disciple.

Wang Yongchun was already a free fighting champion using Long Fist when he was beaten by Li Sanjian. Not combat experience but certainly he had fighting experience.

Fan Xudong, Wang's disciple. Was a champion fighter both in China and Russia. Had a reputation as a fighter with weapons and without.

Luo Guangyu and his older Gongfu brother who came to Shanghai with him, Yang Weixin, were both actually sanda specialists and were sent to Shanghai to represent Tanglang because they were. It is well-known among mainland practitioners that Yang killed more than one opponent in fights.

Master Luo himself produced some excellent fighters. For example, Ma Chengxin won the grand championship of Leitai (platform fighting) at the national Chinese Boxing competition in 1929.

Huang Hanxun, (Wong Hon Fun), was the student sent out by Fan to represent Tanglang and open new schools. He fought on many occasions and writes about matches where, in spite of protective gear, masters still inadvertantly killed one another and how they tried to make their matches less lethal.

One can look at the disciples of Master Huang and see what he taught in his school:

Huang's disciple, Sifu Chung Ho Yin was the fighting representative of both Lau Fat Man's Eagle Claw school and Huang's Tanglang school.

Huang's disciple, Sifu Al Cheng was all Hong Kong champion at one time.

Huang's disciple, Sifu Brendan Lai also was a free fighting specialist who won many bear-handed challenge fights against different styles. At the same time he spoke proudly of the time he was bested by Shuaijow legend, Chiang Tung Sheng, who challenged Sifu Lai because of his fighting reputation.

Qixing and its Northern Praying mantis branch have a history of producing fighters.

I hope this helps,

Steve Cottrell

[-N-]

Originally posted by cha kuen
The only reason I say this is because I am constantly finding out how many famous sifus dont have expereince and the most recent one being Eagle Claw Lau Fat Mang, did HE have real fighting expereince?

??!! Maybe that was someone else in the video?

He certainly did have real fighting experience including combat during the Sino-Japanese war. His heroism with the Dai Dao brigade was legendary. All Chinese of that era know this. When I was a kid, even my mom took me to Chinatown to see a movie because it was about the Dai Dao brigade fighting off the Japanese. Lau Fat Man was a national hero!

Here's a link with some background on grandmaster Lau Fat Man.

http://www.worldeagleclaw.com/history.html

I was lucky enough to hear Master Lily Lau tell some stories about her father. He was famous for taking his special forces on night raids into enemy camps. On a night when there was no moon, he and his men would take off all their clothes and cover themselves with black greasepaint. They shaved off all their hair and then would sneak into a Japanese camp carrying just their knives. All hell would break loose as they killed the enemy soldiers. No one could see anything in the pitch black. But Lau Fat Man and his soldiers knew that if they grabbed someone and felt a uniform or hair, it had to be an enemy. So in the midst of the chaos, it was grab... hair, then kill.... uniform, then kill... over and over until all the enemy were dead.

N.

[cha kuen]

Interesting, thanks Cottrell and N. I will watch the tape again, if I can find it but the audio said in chinese lau fat mang...

[Mr.Binx]

Does anyone know if Luo Guang Yu happened to have any influence on the martial spear forms (if any) that were established during his lifetime?