Shaolin Wing Chun ??

[redtornado]

I was wondering if anyone knows theses forms? And if there is anonther way of saying them? -Single arm Conquer Dragon Hand - Golden Snake Coils Loin Hand - Long Short Brigde Hand

[Savi]

Do you have any more information on this Red Tornado? Where did you come across this information? Just curious.

Thank you in advance...

[FIRE HAWK]

Red tornado got the information from this Hung Gar website that i found that says it teaches Shaolin Wing Chun I think it is Vietnam Wing Chun I think I seen that snake form on a Vietnam Wing Chun website
http://www.hunggakuen.com./
Arm Conquer Dragon Hand
Dhok Pei Hoang Lung Sau

Golden Snake Coils Lion Hand
Kam Szeh Tziehm Sie Sau

Long Short Bridge Hand
Cheung Duen Kuen

They come from Tit Kui Sams Hung Gar lineage .

[redtornado]

Yes, that web site was good! But these forms are they the same as YIP MAN ? There are alot of different ways of learing forms? Yip Man They are simple to the piont Right?
I like to try these other forms also!
But it will after I finish with Yip Man's first!

[reneritchie]

Shaolin is a popular name in China and for centuries people have added it to their system, whether or not there was any connection, direct or indirect, to help attract students.

Vietnam has had a turbulant history and when WCK first showed up in the 1930s, it was taught to both ethnic-Cantonese and ethnic-Vietnamese, however the ethnic-Vietnamese students do not seem to have been given the same amount of material (which was not uncommon back then).

In addition to the WCK of Yuen Chai-Wan and Lui Yiu-Chai, however, also extent were a variety of other Chinese MA, and some students added or created other sets and weapons into their own WCK. It's not uncommon now to find branches there with nearly a dozen weapons (tiger fork, halbard, straight sword, etc.) and many, many empty hand sets.

However, to what extent any of these forms reflect what is usually considered Foshan WCK, or whether or not they have any actual Shaolin connection, is debatable.

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Shaolin is a popular name in China and for centuries people have added it to their system, whether or not there was any connection, direct or indirect, to help attract students.

So, Rene.... you are speaking on behalf of all those individuals who use the name Shaolin - as if you apparently know their reasoning? I'd be more careful and try to leave the discussion more open to others when talking about this. Rene, some kung fu families out there do originate from a Shaolin heritage. Some families are proud of that heritage and it is THEIR identity. Do not be so eager to shun the Shaolin name just because of today's commercial marketing. Certainly there are schools out there who use the name to promote their business, but there are also others who use the name because to them it is a part of their kung fu identity.

Originally posted by reneritchie
Vietnam has had a turbulant history and when WCK first showed up in the 1930s, it was taught to both ethnic-Cantonese and ethnic-Vietnamese, however the ethnic-Vietnamese students do not seem to have been given the same amount of material (which was not uncommon back then).

In addition to the WCK of Yuen Chai-Wan and Lui Yiu-Chai, however, also extent were a variety of other Chinese MA, and some students added or created other sets and weapons into their own WCK. It's not uncommon now to find branches there with nearly a dozen weapons (tiger fork, halbard, straight sword, etc.) and many, many empty hand sets.

Interesting background information, sounds like a shaolin influence to me.

Originally posted by reneritchie
However, to what extent any of these forms reflect what is usually considered Foshan WCK, or whether or not they have any actual Shaolin connection, is debatable.

Here you seem to be driving at something irrelevant to the topic. May I ask, do you have anything directly relevant to the Snake and Dragon aspect of this thread whom Red Tornado is asking? I'd like to know more about it as well.

Red Tornado,
I am not familiar with Vietnamese Wing Chun but from what I have learned, the interesting thing about Shaolin kung fu is that its essense cannot be found or traced by physical appearance. The Shaolin essense runs deeper than technique. The journey begins after the technique becomes a tool. Good luck in your kung fu journey.

[reneritchie]

I would be very eager to see any WCK family with a direct, evident connection to Shaolin.

Unfortunately, the Shaolin Encyclopedia did not show anything remotely similar to WCK. If you could please point me to any old Shaolin manuscripts (properly authenticated, of course) detailing the sequences and terminology found in WCK, I would appreciate it, and become a very vocal 'Shaolin' advocate.

(Note: I am still awaiting same from the Shaolin Kempo folks)

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I would be very eager to see any WCK family with a direct, evident connection to Shaolin.

Unfortunately, the Shaolin Encyclopedia did not show anything remotely similar to WCK. If you could please point me to any old Shaolin manuscripts (properly authenticated, of course) detailing the sequences and terminology found in WCK, I would appreciate it, and become a very vocal 'Shaolin' advocate.

(Note: I am still awaiting same from the Shaolin Kempo folks)

Oooohhhh.... first of all, I have to ask - not that I am even looking for you to be an advocate of another reality of WC other than your own:

1. Do you even know what Shaolin is?

2. If so, please explain.

3. If not, how can you draw any connection to that which you cannot identify with?

[Nick Forrer]

why do i get the feeling that this thread is soon going to degenerate into a slanging match with the usual parties on both sides and around 350 posts?

They say the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing but to expect a different result each time............

[Savi]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
why do i get the feeling that this thread is soon going to degenerate into a slanging match with the usual parties on both sides and around 350 posts?

They say the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing but to expect a different result each time............

Nick,
I truly hope it doesn't this time. The reason I am asking him to answer the above questions is so I do not assume his understanding of the subject, and so I can hopefully provide what I can in a manner he can relate to. I'd like a better perspective on his understanding before providing my thoughts.

In other words, the ball is in his court.

[reneritchie]

No worries Nick. The way I look at it, if someone wants to claim WCK is from Shaolin or Wudang or Emei or Western Boxing or from the sunny streets of New Orleans, that's fine, but where's the evidence to support the claim? Before we get caught up in rhetoric or dissemblage, show the evidence (don't just talk about it, actually show it) and make your case. Everything else is redundant up to and until then.

(And this goes double for the Shaolin Temple Karate folks who wear Gi's and do Shotokan Kata )

[kungfu cowboy]

I think the only safe bet is to claim that your art originated somewhere on the planet Earth. Hopefully there is no refuting that!

[reneritchie]

You anti-Martian-ite!!!!

[kungfu cowboy]

That is the secret mission for the Mars rover to uncover.

[planetwc]

As this thread isn't just between Rene and Savi, perhaps just assuming the lowest common denominator of "Shaolin Knowledge" or lack thereof would serve for everyone who might delve into this thread before it devolves into the usual slag fest.

That way everyone who reads it could follow along without assumptions being made about their backgrounds as well.

So, let's not have to present our Shaolin ID cards, prior to furthering the discussion.

I've often been curious about where the specific Shaolin aspects would be in mainstream Foshan/Guo Lo based Wing Chun.

For example are the platforms, principles of structure and movement, sets either supersets or subsets of mainstream Shaolin arts?

Say Diamond Fist form, or particular sets from Northern Shaolin?

I would also think that it is not just CURRENT day marketing (shaolin-do, shaolin kenpo, shaolin wing chun) to align one's group with Shaolin, reviewing the Tiandihui book, gives insight into just how prevalent a technique that was in terms of each secret societies "origin theory".

When a Shaolin stylist sees a Wing Chun stylist, does he think, yeah--that's a Shaolin system. Does a Wing Chun stylist when he sees a Shaolin stylist doing forms think, yeah thats Wing Chun!

anyway on with the discussion.