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Thread: Dit Da Jow...

  1. #1
    NyHc Guest

    Dit Da Jow...

    I was wondering if someone out there could give me some insight on how, and with what materials, Dit Do Jow is prepared with?
    Also...What is its actually purpose?
    I'm sorry to say that I'm a little ignorant on the topic - Especially since I constantly use it myself. My Sifu just told me to apply it whenever I got bruised up or had an injury of sorts. However, he really never got to tell me exactly what it does.
    I'd appreciate any info you could give me...

  2. #2
    Kung Lek Guest
    Hi.

    It is good that you have a sifu who gives you dit da jow for bruises and aching muscles and what not.

    There are quite a variety of recipes for dit da jow.
    Some are for more superficial hematomas while some act very deep in the body on bone and sinew repair.

    dit Da Jow or "Iron Hit Wine" is described as external medicines in general "Tieh Tah" Jow=wine or the vehivle which carries the medicine (usually alcohol, often tijmes clear like distilled wine or vodka or something of the like)

    what it does in the case of bruises, is speed up blodd flow to the effected area and breakdown any blood cells that are clooting together to form the bruise which is an internal scar.

    The Dit Da Jow prevents this scar from staying and the area is rehabilatated without adversity.

    There are quite a variety, but the basic use in the practice of Kung fu is to relieve blood stasis, increase blood flow and induce quicker healing.
    There are a few brands that have been around and can be purchased in a chinese grocery or apothecary. But if your Si Fu has been handed down a recipe that is specifically made to help with an aspect of the style or system you [practice then it is best to use that jow.

    Perhaps one day, your sifu will give you the recipe.

    peace

    Kung Lek

  3. #3
    JE Guest

    Dit Da Jow - Die Da Jiu

    Die Da Jiu can be made with a huge variety of ingredients depending on the intended use. In martial arts we often see it used in conjunction with various body conditioning exercises such as sam sing, wooden man, iron palm, iron shin, etc. When we use a liniment for this type of training it must contain speficic herbs to strengthen the sinews and bones as well as promote blood circulation. When it is used to treat an acute injury such as a broken bone, severe sprain or a strained muscle it must contain other herbs to help clear inflammation and swelling. In both cases the core of herbs will be blood quickening herbs that promote circulation, clear bruising, and ease pain.

    On a side note many traditional formulas contain toxic ingredients which can be difficult to obtain from your average Chinese owned herbal pharmacy. If you have a connection to a pharmacy through your teacher it will make the process MUCH easier.

    If your more interested about hit medicine (Shang Ke Xue)- the branch of TCM that treats injuries and such check out the medicine page of www.hunggakuen.com Feel free to contact me with any questions.

    regards,

    Justin

  4. #4
    Pilgrim Guest

    Justin,question

    Here's a curiosity, can you id the ingredients. My materia medicas ( Hsu, Bensky, Yeung) aren't written in this transliteration.
    Poison Hand: 1/1oth teal pee chaiu, suh chuan, chye.2/10th Tael: Yellow keng chye, chuan Shee Tuan(no oil), kam chou,chye chang poe, moe yew,tze lan tong, phang gua, wild wolf's tooth, claw of tiger, tsang juke, kai tong pee, faeng fong, rue shiang, tze yen rong chye er chean, chain lian chean, too chong, tonk kwai sum, soot ti, jin jien chuan, niew chee. And there's more.
    I think this comes from an English speaking person who wrote down the sounds of the Chinese speaker.

  5. #5
    Monkey Guest
    Here's a link to a ' how to ' site.
    http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html

  6. #6
    JE Guest

    Die Da Jiu

    Pilgrim,

    The herbs you wrote are a romanization of the Cantonese names for the herbs. That's why you won't find them in Bensky, etc. It's actually a problem we find when trying to translate martial arts formulas because many immigrants from China were from Southern China and speak Cantoniese. I do know some of them but if you have access to the characters and can email them I'll be able to translate it all for you.

    I wrote the pin yin below next to each one I could recognize. Hope it helps. Sorry I can't do much more. Like I said, if you have access to the characters I'll be glad to translate the whole thing for you. If it's all in Cantonese romanization I'm afraid I'm not going to be very helpful...

    good luck,

    Justin

    Poison Hand: 1/1oth teal pee chaiu, suh chuan, chye.2/10th Tael: Yellow keng chye, chuan Shee Tuan(no oil), kam chou (GAN CAO),chye chang poe (SHI CHANG PU), moe yew(MO YAO) ,tze lan tong (ZI RAN TONG), phang gua, wild wolf's tooth, claw of tiger, tsang juke (CANG ZHU), kai tong pee (HAI TONG PI), faeng fong (FANG FENG), rue shiang (RU XIANG), tze yen rong chye er chean, chain lian chean, too chong (DU ZHONG), tonk kwai sum (DANG GUI WEI), soot ti (SHU DI), jin jien chuan, niew chee (NIU XI). And there's more.
    I think this comes from an English speaking person who wrote down the sounds of the Chinese speaker.

  7. #7
    Pilgrim Guest

    Thanks Justin

    The Cantoneses connection can be really frustrating. Thanks for the help. Hope your studies are going well. Your Hung Gar site is great.

  8. #8
    NyHc Guest

    ...

    As far as the base ingredient for Dit Da Jow; what are some of the different bases used?
    I've heard of rubbing alcohol and wintergreen.
    Does it make a difference? Are any bases used bad?
    I'm not exactly sure what my current Sifu uses. I will ask him, but I know my former Sigung used rubbing alcohol.

  9. #9
    JE Guest

    die da jiu...

    Die da jiu is most commonly made with alcohol. Traditional formulas for external use usually called for Huang Jiu (Yellow Wine). This was often some type of rice or millet wine from the local area. Internal formulas usually called for Bai Jiu (White Wine). Bai Jiu is a distilled spirit and was often a wine made from sorghum, although I'm sure other types of wines were also used.

    The main prinicple that can be seen here is that the more common and less pure alcohol, Huang Jiu, was used externally, while the more rare and pure alcohol, Bai Jiu, was used internally. Use the cheap stuff for outside and save the good stuff for inside.

    In modern times we can buy cheap distilled spirits and so there is less of a need to differentiate. I was taught to use vodka but know of people who prefer gin. The main thing is to use a pure substance with a low sugar level. Sake is a sweet wine and will make your die da jiu too sticky.

    Rubbing alcohol is not a good choice, but I am regrettably blanking on my reason for that right now. I remember being told by my teacher long ago but don't remember why. Sorry. My suggestion is to use cheap vodka or gin.

    Some formulas also include the use of vinegar or some oils but it depends on the use of the formula. Most traditional formulas will have directions for what type of alcohol to use. If nothing is specified and it's just a wine for training then use vodka/gin/etc.

    Hope the information helps.

    Justin

  10. #10
    NyHc Guest

    ...

    great info...thanks a lot

  11. #11
    NyHc Guest

    Scar Tissue

    I have quite a bit of scar tissue in my right ankle. It affects my training very slightly, but nevertheless.
    It's been broken twice. The first time the bone came through the skin when I was younger and the second time I broke my talis bone.
    The range of motion is also not as good as my left ankle.
    Will Dit Da Jow do anything for this, or would I need to seek an alternate cure? Is there a cure?
    Any suggestions are welcome...

  12. #12
    JE Guest

    ankle...

    There are a couple of things to consider before pursuing treatment. First is how much does this affect your daily life or training? Is there pain or just a limited range of motion? When you say there is a limited range of motion do you feel that limitation more in the muscles of your calf or in the joints of the ankle?

    If there are significant calcium deposits around where the breaks occured treatment can help but it will take quite a bit longer and the effects will be less dramatic. If the problem is coming from tight muscles in your calf then massage or acupuncture can make a quicker and more significant difference.

    The reality is that it is likely both of these so your question should be which part seems to be the bigger cause of your problems.

    That being said, here's a simple thing you can try to see how much die da can help. Set aside at least thirty minutes each night for your ankle. Pour some die da jiu (a WARMING formula) on some gauze, place it over the area you feel has the most scar tissue, wrap the area with some plastic wrap, and cover with a hot pack. Let it cook your ankle for about minutes every night for five days, take a couple days off and repeat for another five days. At the end of two weeks see how it feels.

    Becareful not to burn yourself. If you start to get a rash from your die da formula stop until it goes away and then just cook the area for a shorter amount of time.

    One of the problems with using die da in the West is that we don't quite use it properly. If your going to use die da jiu as your primary modality to treat an injury then you need to spend more time rubbing it in to the area. The stereotypical 30 second application isn't enough. Pour some into a small bowl (or shot glass) dip your fingers in and rub the liquid into the area. Repeat for about 10 minutes until the area is really saturated with the liquid. Remember our goal is to get the liquid into the area so it can treat the injury. Using the hot pack is good for chronic problems which tend to respond well to warmth.

    Good luck

    Justin

  13. #13
    phantom Guest
    Justin, I was told that, except for applying the jow to your palms, it is better to rub with your knuckles instead, becasue rubbing with the palms will just cause the jow to be soaked up by the palms, and the knuckles also stimulate the meridians in the body better.

  14. #14
    JE Guest

    application of die da jiu

    phantom,

    There is really very little you can do to prevent the liquid from being absorbed by whichever body part you use. When treating an acute severe injury in it's earliest stages we sometimes need to be very careful about the amount of pressure we apply to the area. As I'm sure you can imagine we have much more sensetivity and control with our fingertips than with our knuckles. Basically I'm you don't need to worry about the absorbtion because it can't be avoided and that the fingertips allow for greater sensetivity.

    As far as qi emission is concerned when stimulating the points I will have to give a big no on that one. Just think about snake stylists, ba gua practitioners, etc. Qi is strongly emitted from the hands in general but when trained properly can be emitted from any body part. The knuckles (like a pheonix eye fist) can be a nice way to apply very firm pressure to a specific point and I use them often when treating, but I also use my palms, fingers, elbows, knees, etc. As far as TCM is concerned the fingers (and toes) are a location where the transition of qi between the yin and yang paired channels. The qi is relatively superficial in the body and more easily influenced. Likewise it is more easy to emmit from there (think of the secret sword fingers in training the straight sword -gim/jian).

    Anyhow, that's my $0.02

    have a good weekend,

    Justin

  15. #15
    phantom Guest

    Thanks, Justin!

    I really appreciate it. I think you are an invaluable asset to this forum. I really mean it. Peace, long life, and prosperity.

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