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Thread: Dit Da Jow...

  1. #16
    Retired Taoist Guest
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was wondering if someone out there could give me some insight on how, and with what materials, Dit Do Jow is prepared with?
    [/quote]


    If you want to know how to make them, you can also go Here where 8 Dit da Jows recipes from a traditional Pharmacy in Beijing are described.

    Dim Dam Doum

  2. #17
    tnwingtsun Guest

    Dit dot jow

    I have heard that vinegar in this makes the bones brittle,then I've heard that this is nonsense,
    which is true???

  3. #18
    tnwingtsun Guest

    HELLO???

    Does anybody know????????????????

  4. #19
    twktcc Guest

    ddj

    Hello there !
    I have read and been told the vinegar is a good base for ddj if it is used for the occasional injury... here and there. However, if it us used consistantly on the same area (ie. hands) that it can brittle the bones. Cider vinegar has alot of "healing/ health" properties in and of its own
    as well.
    Regards,
    Dave

    "Character consists of what you do on the third and fourth tries"


  5. #20
    JE Guest

    vinegar...

    tnwingtsun,

    As is typical with Chinese medicine both things you heard are true. The key is in the balance.

    Vinegar is exceptionally effective at relieving pain and spasms. Sour is the flavor associated with the Liver in TCM and the Liver controls the Jin. The Jin are the sinews and most closely relate to muscles in a Western analogy although some prefer to relate them to the musculo-tendonous areas (where the muscle turns into tendon and attaches to the bones). In being sour, vinegar soothes the Liver to relieve spasms. It is also effective at clearing heat. Try pouring some on a paper towel and putting it over a burn sometime. It really helps with the pain.

    As far as the softening fo bones, just think what happens if you soak an egg or chicken bone in vinegar. They get soft and plyable, right. The same with the bones, and of course this is not how we want our bones to be.

    In reality I doubt using a vinegar based liniment on a regular basis would make your bones as soft as if you had soaked them in vinegar for several weeks, however medically speaking it serves no purpose towards supporting your martial arts training. Chinese medicine is very focused on practicality, they have thousands of medicinals and if one can't meet their exact needs there is bound to be another that can.

    I use one formula with vinegar in it to treat acute soft tissue injuries (muscle strains, pulls, spasms, etc.), the inclusion of vinegar in the formula supports the actions of the herbs to treat the spasm and pain. I don't use vinegar in any of my training formulas because it does not serve a purpose as related to my training.

    hope the information helps,

    Justin

  6. #21
    fiercest tiger Guest

    good point ntwingstun

    justin,
    would vinegar dry the area applied out and toughen the skin? i have the formulas for making poultices we call yut ho yee ho #1 & #2 powders, depending on the injury like you said and how long the injury you would use vinegar, wine , or egg white.(right)??

    this is what i have learnt what i call basic dit dar in hongkong off the grandmaster their.

    for the washes and soaks i never use a vinegar base linement.

    i heard for a iron palm formula that you can use vinegar and rusty nails and some herbs. this was a way to get fast tough/rough hands i was told. rust wouldnt be good for you, and like you said to much vinegar can be bad.

    whats your view on this??? have you ever heard of this type of formula that uses rusty nails? :confused:

    peace

    yaukungmun@hotmail.com

  7. #22
    JE Guest

    vinegar and rusty nails...

    FT,

    I'm not sure about vinegar drying out and toughening the skin. In terms of TCM it is sour and astringing. There are different types of vinegar as well; white, black, rice, etc. The lighter colors are generally more cooling and the darker more neutral to warming, although they are all quite good at clearing inflammation.

    As far as poultices go I almost always use egg whites for acute injuries (this is what I was taught originally). I also prefer the consistency of egg whites to alcohol or vinegar based pastes (just easier to work with). Egg whites also have a strong astringing action and work very well to extract a deep bruise towards the surface of the body - very important.

    Still, there are times that I would consider using vinegar. As I mentioned in the previous post it is especially useful for spasms of the sinews. I haven't used vinegar enough to be able to say if it will cause dryness or toughening of the skin. My guess is not any more so than alcohol would.

    As far as the rusty nails formula goes, yes I've heard of that. A really simple formula that is actually a nice example of how simple TCM can be. It also reminds us that martial artists have a long history of being poor and not being able to always buy the more expensive herbs.

    Nails (historically) contained iron in them (nowadays this may not be true). One of the main herbs used in hit medicine is Zi Ran Tong, Pyritum, Fool's gold. The main chemical consituent of this is ferrous disulfide, an iron compound. Historically, zi ran tong is heated to red hot and dipped in vinegar to help extract some of its healing constituents. Zi ran tong strongly moves blood stasis and strengthens and promotes the healing of bones and sinews.

    So when we look at this formula you can see that you are using an herb that clears blood stasis and strengthens the bones and sinews: basically everything we need for iron palm training. The vinegar helps extract the medicinal part of the nails and with the pain and inflammation that develop during training. This takes the place of many of the toxic herbs that are used in traditional formulas to stop pain.

    As far as toughening of the skin is concerned I'm not sure (I haven't used this formula before). But in general the amount of skin toughening we try to achieve in Chinese martial arts is relatively minimal (not like Japanese makiwara training). I was taught that you should not be able to tell a person has trained in iron palm by the look of their hands. Of course there will be some thickening of the skin and bones that occurs over time with this training, but it should be subtle in it's appearance.

    By the way, nice post about kinematics (body mechanics). Definitely a major point when considering applications...

    cheers,

    Justin

  8. #23
    tnwingtsun Guest

    Thanks everybody

    great posts and full of helpful info,my Bai
    Mei Sifu uses a Vinegar and a nonVin one,he has made and used the vinegar one for iron palm
    and doesen't have a brittle bone in his body,
    his hands are soft and show little evidence
    of training,he puts dents in a large(very heavy)
    bag filled with iron shot with pheniox eye
    punches but has no callas on his fingers,funny story,the other night My Sifu,his wife,my wife and son were eating out,my son got a case of bad hicups,I gave him a tablespoon of sugar(this sometimes works with me),that didn't work,he got my son around the table and put his palm on my son's and found a point somewhere on the inside of the wrist inch or two into the forarm,he poked that point with a toothpick a few times and then did the same on the other arm,the hicups stopped.
    My wife doesen't belive in TCM,she opened up after that,any idea what point that is??
    so many other things to talk about,didn't have a chance to ask ;)

  9. #24
    fiercest tiger Guest

    guys

    justin,
    would it be useful and healthy to use the vinegar and iron nails together, or any type these days?

    would you first let them get rusty? the vinegar i was shown is the dark vinegar, which vinegar is better for dit dar jow?

    egg white is full of proteins too! but gotta have the eggs at the school, and to be honest we dont have to much casulties during training. the guys go hard but not stupid.

    wingstun,

    tooth picks huh! after it was in his mouth heheheh!
    i heard of a chi kung doctor here that uses tooth picks. cheaper but not as effective. I WOULDNT THINK?

    ;)

    come & visit us!
    http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
    yaukungmun@hotmail.com

  10. #25
    Turiyan Guest

    Some useful info

    Old style boxers have used a brine solution of vinegar and salt brushed on area's of the face and knuckles to toughen the skin like leather.

    I've read that the vinegar soup medications should be changed every 3 times every 33 days (99 days) and heated to around 100 degree's before using. The hand is immersed and soaked and allowed to dry on its own without wiping. Some leave the hand in till the mixture cools to room temperature.

    The formula does condition the hand by itself, and the heat gets easyer to bear. I'd imagine one would have to heat the mixture gradually, hotter and hotter as your tissues acclimate to the temperature.

    Iron is associated with the liver which is responsible for the strength of connective tissues.

    With a good vinegar formula (not just the basic vinegar and nails) your hand will turn black and be tough as shoe leather after about 100 days.

    Vinegar formulas arent much for bruising. Because many of the herbs for such will make you sick if you use an acid base.

    A basic bruise formula would consist of alchohol with several live baby rats dropped in. Let it sit for a week or so before using. What a way to die!

    Bahahahahahahhahahahahaha.

    Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

    The REAL taichi:
    http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
    http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

  11. #26
    Michael Jacobs Guest

    rusty nails, dead rats? Now thats manly K-fu

    Why not use an already micronized version of iron that could be found in a vitamin supplement? This could also prevent using nails with Tetanus by accident. My wife would also prefer that I not give her backrubs that smell like soy sauce and dead rats, not to mention internal bleeding and abrasions from inch thick callouses. I just hope all this iron palm training isnt for picking up the ladies. HeHe Anyway, you want to get rid of a bruise? Try a massage, some vitamin E and C or Alfalfa (vitamin K). ;)

  12. #27
    WongFeHung Guest
    I had a black vinegar and nails iron palm formula, that I threw out. It seems that this formula was supposed to be used sparingly, as a hardening formula, just as steel is tempered. But it can also be over tempered, making it brittle. Well, being young, exuberant, and pretty **** stupid,I heated it up, soaked my hands in it three times a day, andwalked around smelling like a salad! My sweat stained the sheets and my shirts, and I broke my fingers in sparring three times in six months. I discontinued the jow and the fingers eventually stopped breaking. If I ever make that formula again, I will use it very sparingly, if at all. (see, I still don't learn. stupid, stupid, stupid)

  13. #28
    Fish of Fury Guest

    great thread

    i'd also been confused about this.

    i've heard of the rusty nails formula, and that it can cause brittle bones

    my sihing taught me iron palm training using a vinegar (but no nails) formula. my hands got strong but stayed supple, and nothing broke (but i only used it for a year.)

    my sifu had very soft palms but great strength/iron palm.once we were boiling stones in medicine and he was just scooping them out with his hands while the stuff was still boiling!
    he used alcohol based dit dar, but i'm not sure if he also had a vinegar iron palm formula

    __________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    So. Oregon
    Posts
    344

    di dat jow....

    Hello...

    i am wondering if anyone has the recipe for di dat jow. And how would I be able to go about getting it?

    Thanks.....
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    St. Simons Island, GA
    Posts
    264

    Cool tao of wushu

    What type of jow/recipe do you need?

    Damian

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