White Ape Steals Peach

[mantis108]

Here's a great thread on a Chinese Mantis Forum that I found about Baiyuan Tautao (white Ape Steals Peach). The first page of this link has the drawings and the second page is a scanned in WHF version in its entirity totaling 24 moves. This also is the exact match of Lam Wing Kit's WASP second road in his book on page 31.

White Ape Steals Peach

Hope you all enjoy. Let's share your insights of the form.

Mantis108

PS Almost forgot the link.

[Ren Blade]

Thanks. That was great. I never got to see the real White Ape Steals Peach form. It definitely is alot different from the Yu Hai's version of White Ape Steals Peach.

If Yu Hai made up a complete different form for Wushu Mantis, then why did he choose to call his self created form White Ape Steals Peach as well? Yu Hai's Mantis looks like it has Ba Gua flavor here and there.

[Young Mantis]

Ren Blade,

Be aware that Law Gwong Yuk's White Ape Steals the Peach is much different from the one played by most PRC mantis practitioners. The PRC White Ape Steals the Peach is much more similar to LGY's Mantis Steals the Peach. I believe there are past threads on this. Try searching in this forum.

I have not seen Yu Hai's version so I can not comment on it.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Hi All,

I can only say that the Ba Yuen Tao Tou Kuen in the LGY-CCM-Lee Kam Wing Line is totaly different from the shown form of the WHF Lineage!

It must be very interessting to compare both live. SadlyI don´t know anyone in germany who knows the WHF version ....

[mantis108]

You are most welcome Ren Blade. Thanks for the input, Young Mantis.

I think this is the Mainland WASP that you referred to:

Mainland Baiyuan Tautao

It is indeed look a lot more like that Tanglang Tautao in HK 7* lineages.

I think the 2nd Road or Routine is actually the last 3 roads of the WASP (HK 7* lineages). It would seem that it is for the purpose of group preformance. The whole form is rather long and would take up quite a bit of space. So the last 3 roads were chosen as public group performance material. Here's an example of it in group performance from the Team Mantis site.

HK Baiyuan Tautao Erlu

even a group of 6 - 8 people can perform it on a small stage. I believe the 2nd Road designation was just given to it for communication purposes so that the performers knows actually what to perform. It somehow got stick with the WASP designation instead. Anyway, it created some confussion.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Bai Lung,

As Mantis 108 has said, the set presented in the pictures is identical to the CCM Kune Po for the Second Route of CCM's Bai Yuan Tou Tao.

Are you familar with the Second Route of this form? If so, then it would seem that what we have is a departure from CCM's curriculum by LKW. We have discussed this set before on this forum and Master Chiu Leung, also a student of CCM has a version of this Second Route that is very similar to the WHF version, even though Master Chiu's Tanglang was influenced by the Gongfu of the Yip Ming Duk monks and his sets preserve this influence through variances form the CCM Kunepo.

Development in the Gongfu of persons as they practice is inevidable. When these developments are significant and viewed to be of sufficient value to bear preservation for future generations, they are often preserved in the sets of that master. If LKW's Bak Yuen Tao Toe has been altered, one can be certain that there are developments in his Gongfu that necessitated this.

I, for one, would be facinated to find out what they were, if indeed the set has been changed.

Thanks for your input on this Bai Lung, it could be the beginning of a facinating study into the development of the Gongfu of Lee Kam Wing.

Steve Cottrell

[Mantis9]

Sifu Cottrell,

Just a question about the HK clip Mantis108 posted. Does this reflect your BYTT closely?

The reason I ask, is at two parts of the form shown, the players kick, post the kick leg in front, then pivot around to gua/dung san bu.

Being from the Chen Zhen Yi lineage, I was under the impression that CCY's and WHF's form where relatively the same. So, falsely I assume now, that kicked a pivoted into gua without posted the kicking foot.

Just curious, thanks.

Mantis9

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

This set has been a subject of conflicting opinions for many years among HK Tanglang practitioners. My own research has, in the past, brought some disagreement because of the varing opinions. I do not wish to debate so I will present short versions of each side as follows:

WHF said that the short set, 24 postures in all, is an original set taught by master Luo and that it's shortness was to train the breath and the use of Ging. They hold that the "first route" of this set is a creation of CCM presenting ideas that he wished to preserve from master Luo.

Chun Chin Yee practitioners, (CCY being another senior student under master Luo), hold that the set was indeed the only one that was taught by Master Luo and that a first route was added by master CCM.

Many CCM practitioners hold that the first route of this set was given to them by master Luo as inheritors of the system. (A claim disputed by WHF and Chun Chin Yee's disciples).

Master Chiu Leung of New York also posesses this first route in his curriculum as well as the other sets listed in Lam Wing Kit's Kunepo. I do not know where they stand on the claims of a single inheritor.

I have no desire to argue this in any respect but this is the status of the "First Route".

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 9,

I do not know where the posted foot is but I can say that the Gua in movement 18 of the set as we practice it, occurs after one performs a zhuan or rotation with the foot still in the air. the same happens in movement 23 where one performs zhuan or rotation after a cheng tui or proping kick.

In other words, we do not post the foot, (I believe that this is what you are refering to, correct me if I am wrong). I don't know what lineage this group is, perhaps they could not get the timing of the set together for what I take to be a group performance.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Shifu Pel,

Thank you for providing this information concerning your line also.

Also, you have seen this set in LKW's curriculum, is it as different as Bai Lung has said? If so, can you shead any light on when it changed and perhaps why?

Thanks again for your willingness to share with the community!

Steve Cottrell

[MantisCool]

I think it is wrong to call the White Ape Steals the Peach Route 1 and 2. It should be version 1 and 2 because either school only learnt 1 type and not both types. Those that have both types are acquired not passed down.

I am from the Wong Kam Huang lineage and ours is exactly the same as the WHF's. There isnt any 3rd version. Those from the PRC is Mantis steals the Peach abeit a different name. Lam Wing Kit only listed the 2 versions from the HK lineages.

[MantisifuFW]

MantisCool,

Thank you for sharing your line's approach to this set. It really begins to give a clear picture of master Luo's approach to Tanglang.

However, Lam Wing Kit lists both sets in his book because he is preserving the heritage of the CCM branch of Tanglang. They do, in fact, perform both roads of White Ape Steals the Peach and consider them one set.

It seems, however, as we have discussed here, that all branches of Luo's HK Tanglang, except those associated with CCM, perform the set as pictured on the website.

It is encouraging to hear about all the branches of Master Luo who continue to this day. And about how much we all continue to have in common!

Thanks for sharing,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis Cool,

My research on the mainland indicates that the mainland version of White Ape Steals the Peach very likely existed before Master Luo's version of the set that we all share.

If one looks at the mainland version of "white ape steals the peach" and the HK set "Mantis steals the peach", they are nearly identical.

Also on the mainland they have no set called "mantis steals the peach". As I inquired about this difference they said that master Luo created the two White Ape sets that he taught in HK and renamed the mainland White Ape sets, calling them Mantis Steals the Peach and Mantis Exits the Cave.

The reason he did this, as far as I can tell from histories written at the time, is that Master Luo was combining his Qixing Tanglang with Meihua and Guangbang Tanglang. As such, his unique version that we now call HK Tanglang has a different arrangement of sets. It is no longer pure Qixing. This is why, for example, WHF used the name Northern Mantis to describe his style. It was no longer Qixing when these other influences were added.

Hope I haven't been too confusing.

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Very interesting and very confused.

The inflicting of Tong Long Tao Tou Kuen is indeed obvious.

I will make a clip of all three: Ba Yuen Chot Dong, Ba Yuen Tao Tou, Tong Long Tao Tou...

So maybe it will be easier to figure the differences and the commons out!

Will posting the clips on Sunday ...

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by Kai Uwe Pel


... yes maybe
we are still waiting for your clips.
Thanks

Mr. Pel you may have see different version, may be you can help us with some clips in the meanwhile.

Thx for your help!