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Thread: Wushu

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina
    As far as the round house kick like you are talking, I still say its not in TCMA, that it has been incorporated from outside influences. Not saying it's not being taught as traditional. Not saying it's not in form being taught as traditional. This is just what I hear from the old school Chinese that I respect, who learned and fought in China.
    My style comes from a guy who learned kung fu in China, and left China in 1949. And two of my hand sets have CMA-style roundhouse kicks. If the kicks he learned pre-1949 aren't Chinese, where did they come from?

    I also see that these kicks come from the outside and work there way inside (exposing the groin), that they are vertical balanced
    Chinese roundhouse brings the knee up straight, then rolls the hip over so that the groin is not exposed. It is less powerful than a Thai kick, but more "safe."
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  2. #62
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    as an aside, i would say that tma schools are lacking in the area of conditioning.

    the focus is why this is. but there is not a lot of creedence giving to the value of hard cardio workouts and heavy bag work to the level it should be to really make a person able to endure like you will find in mma type schools.

    hardcore cma schools do it, but in my experience, those are few and far between really. There is a lot of "take it easy" attitude which can lead to laziness and an inability to endure hard strikes or panic situations.

    just an observation. I also feel that there is an abundance of this type of training in mma, but not a lot done about technique development with the option being favoured to a lot of conditioning and delivering the big one. But with time, i even see that morphing into a more refined way.

    it'll all hash out in the end though, and the field will be evened in regards to the whoel sportive combative thing.

    I also think the whole "train for the street" line is hogwash for the most part and an excuse to not pressure test those things that are key and the bulk of the purpose of martial training. I believe you can't swim if you never go into the water and you can practice a front stroke all day in the air but it will be totally different and requiring a lot of adjustment whe you hit the water.

    Better to get in the pool and try than not to.

    But, I can appreciate the value of any of it for what it is. The connections have to be made by the individual anyway.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller
    Chinese roundhouse brings the knee up straight, then rolls the hip over so that the groin is not exposed. It is less powerful than a Thai kick, but more "safe."
    If you added hip power from both the kicking leg and the driving leg it would be. My point is that this is different than the "traditional" round house kick you see CMA's using today which is no different than TKD or karate's roundhouse.

    I know it's generally assumed that a kick is a kick but that is like saying a punch is a punch and that is not the case. The foot and fist may be involved, but it's who's sending it out and how that makes a world of difference.

    I don't see the uniqueness of Chinese kicking in the forms being performed by CMA today.
    Last edited by Ray Pina; 05-23-2006 at 12:21 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    the choreography is longer in some forms of course, but if you are doing a+b=c you are still doing the same thing as in left foot goes here, right foot goes there, step to the outside etc etc etc. Changing the language around what one is doing doesn't change what one is doing in the least.
    I honestly don't believe we are talking about the same thing. The intention is different, and more importantly, the result is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    you see competition fighters missing the obvious moves you can see they should make while in conflict.
    how many times have any of us said to ourselves , I shoulda done a there or b here or x and y. How many times do we watch fighters and get frustrated that they are not seeing the openings that we as spectators see? This happens all teh time.
    I agree with this. I watch footage of myself and I say, man I should have. etc., etc.
    It's rarely a matter of choosing the wrong tool. Most of the time it's being in the wrong position, wrong choice of strategy, conditioning, plane old bad luck. In my last fight, I didn't engage, I met my man flat footed. I was reacting off of him. Then, in frustration to this, I chased him, got caught. Rarely is the difference between a back fist and an uppercut, "the golden dragon seeks the clouds" or "Tiger and crane defeat all for shoalin."

    As for missed holes and what not. That's always going to happen. Just like dropped passes in football. Being there in the excitement of things, the adrenaline, the speed of things in your face is quite different than at home on the couch with your feet up.



    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    it's all dance and it's all choreography until it gets to the touching part, then it's applied and it all comes down to who is better that day or who has obviously practiced more and had more experience.
    The act of choreography alone is foolish. Why train that way, that same sequence, all the time for decades? Who's going to attack you in that pattern ever? And not the whole thing, I'm talking three moves. Until I see a form that adresses jab, jab, hook ..... jab, jab, uppercut .... jab, jab, shoot .... then I say hogwash.

    As for depending on choreography UNTIL it gets to touching .... is this the doctrine on which your school is based? Would you go out to fight based on this?

    Yes, it is going to come down to who is better that day, who practiced more and who has more experience..... at that point, how you understand collapsing power, uprooting power, driving power, pulling power, leverage, mechanics, structure --- all in relation to another human being --- will be of more value than how many times you performed Gun Jee Fuk Foo in a Chinese restuarant during Chinese New Year with studed bracelets on your wrist.

    Let's face it. Take a way form, and 90% of CMA teachers lose a huge portion of their curriculum. I can only speak for myself. I have two students I've been training for almost two years, 18 and 19. No form. I would put them against students of any CMA school in my area.

    They don't know what form is. They know put on boxing gloves and head gear and use the elbows to block. They know come in on the attack and keep your back straight. They know wedging kicks. They know ground.

    To me, that is teaching someone self defense. They meet a boxer friend and they bring them by. I play with them. We all know in this game on any given day. There's no shame in being bested. This happened yesterday. I wasn't bested. But this is the example I want to make as their teacher. I want them to know this isn't a game, this isn't dress in Chinese clothes and DANCE. This is beat someone's a$$ or have your a$$ beat.

    Sorry for so many words and I'll shut up now. Just that this subject, I swear to you, I live and breath it. It's on my mind all the time. I want to be the absolute best.
    Last edited by Ray Pina; 05-23-2006 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #65

    Fwiw

    This is the type of Tai Chi they are trying to promote in China right now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3l81...=wushu%20taiji

  6. #66
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    PS

    I'd like to conclude by humbling myself. I know I just came off like a know it all, but rest assured I am humbled every time I walk through my master's door, everytime I see pro fighters on TV competing at a level I can not call my own.

    I still have much to learn (hopefully not the hard way), much to see and hear. All I'm trying to say is we need to be more honest with ourselves.

    Look, I can talk about my second degree black belt in Issin-Ryu, my hung gar training, wing Chun, S Mantis .... that's why it's hard to bull$hit me. I've trained with people considered very good in those fields, with good lineages. I've competed in the kung fu tournaments. I know what's out there. I aint saying these things just to say them.

    We need to wake up! We can go back and forth on the internet all day are we can make a commitment to right the wrongs. I know this sounds sappy, but teachers need to do the right thing ..... stop lying to your students. And this goes to the teacher who has nothing of martial merit talking around his skills, talking down about other styles as well as the teacher who has much who's withholding from a student who is deserving. Good students don't grow on trees. What you're holding back today may not have a safe haven to grow tomorrow.

    I just wish we could collectively cut the bull$hit and be real with ourselves as martial artists, and with our students and teachers alike. This is the best path for growth.

  7. #67
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    Ray's message is clear and it is correct. Sure there are some trivial technical issues that may be disagreed upon, but overall, i think we all feel the same way.

    thers is a LOT of bs out there.

    roundhouse kick...

    not sure about that one, we do them, but we call them saber kicks.

    they are not included into our wushu practice, only our application and kick drills.

    my teacher was trained by a very traditional master, no wushu at all. (he picked that up in beijing) i would assume that the kick is grounded in traditional arts, but not highly practiced in many sets. he spent his time in thailand fighting in the ring, but ours is done very differently than thai style...hes very adamant about keeping things sectioned, ie: this is modern wushu, this is traditional....etc..

    but over all the bs needs to stop being forwarded. i think now people are starting to realize more and more that you have to really research what your going to do if you want any real benefit. with this continuing trend, hopefully many of the crockpots out there will start to fade away....hopefully...
    A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
    ~Sima Qian

    Master pain, or pain will master you.
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    "Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
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  8. #68
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    well, i think an endless diet of forms will get you nothing but a bunch of forms.

    you gotta take em apart, they must be extrapolated from.

    If not, then I entirely agree with rays posts.

    My point is that forms are an effective way of introducing body mechanics, balance, co-ordination and in tuneness with a students and their understanding of what it is they will be doing at the next step.

    they serve as reference as well and contain a styles body of techniques such as kicks punches, throws holds etc etc. In some styles, there are very unusual motions that are not apparent at first glance but with time, they are discovered and generally there's a little head smacking going on for not getting it earlier.

    But if we all "got it" without doing the work, it wouldn't be worth it at all. lol

    I agree, there is a lot of pompous ass hattery going around in martial arts from overly esoteric chi blasting bs to rex kwon do maniacs who think brute force and intimidation is the way. lol

    Ray, I humble myself every time I practice and will continue to do so. It forces one to examine themselves and examine what they are doing. I have to agree with the ancients who iterated that the unexamined life is not worth living. and that's what kungfu is about.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #69
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    PS

    that taiji clip up above is fucd up
    A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
    ~Sima Qian

    Master pain, or pain will master you.
    ~PangQuan

    "Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
    ~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching

    You know you want to click me!!

  10. #70
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    I am not one to say, if you want to learn to swim jump in the pool. What I am saying, get in the 3 foot pool, let me suspend your body, and go over the basic swimming motion we went over just now on land so you can feel the water resistance and how to use it.

    This is different than spending all your time, most of your time, even 1/2 or 1/4 of your time on land making believe to do all the different possible strokes.

    You do not need form to learn these lessons. Form only prolongs it. You can learn pushing/pulling angle in minutes with a partner. You can be shown how to train it in motion through walking excersices to develop power.

    Basic shielding and how to use the elbows, same thing, same class. In one hour you now know how to have momentum and shield yourself.

    This is the major point. You have to get over this form crutch. Let's for argument sake say that is the way they used to do it (I'm of the opinion the government started promoting form competitions as a way to make millions of Chinese less dangerous) .... you don't need it any more. Put it down. It's an antique. Update.

    You and your students could be better but you have to admit that your formula is broken. Don't hang onto it so as to be right, to hold onto your money making scheme. Start changing. Your students will respect you for it. If you have to start training again, do it. Find a good gym and train 1 or 2 days a week and implement what you learn in time.

    I spend a lot of time around MAists, CMAist in particular... there isa world of difference in the vibe coming off someone who cna use their stuff and a form collector. It is like night and day. Not meanness, not ****iness. But a confidence to discuss differences, a willigness to see and test and explore. Form collectors say it is the way it is because it's always been that way .... at the best, they change the conversation when things get to "let's see it." At the worst they warn you of how dangerous they are.

    Personaly. I feel I'm not wrong for calling people who claim to be CMAists on this. You play chess? Lets play. You studied Hung Gar for 5 years? Want to roll? Why not? Not your thing? OK< let's put on some gloves and see what you got?

    Wait, no ground? No stand up? What gives?

  11. #71
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    that tai chi video is garbage. i actually got angry watching it. the worst part are the comments people left about it.

  12. #72
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    Thumbs down wow...

    welcome to the wonderful world of Wushu?!

    That's definitely a Fu(k up Wushu-Taiji.

    Mantis108
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  13. #73
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    Forms serve as a great way to condition the body and ingrain reflexes in order to allow the body to move through a very wide variety of positions without undue strain and discomfort. Many incorporate intense conditioning and breathing components that significantly increase physical and mental conditioning. Getting rid of forms is not an option if you train in a system that values the attributes they give one...if you have no forms and are fine without them and your system is developed in some other way, than fine, don't do forms.

    However, forms give you much to practice on your own time and also create a very crucial eye and feel towards proper mechanics. Forms are done in concert with other types of training such as the basics of punching, kicking, stepping, general movement, and physical conditioning.

    However, again, I wouldn't practice without one to one drills, self-defense, and obviously sparring...which all bring together the concepts and theories of the style's forms into a coherent whole.

    Fighting is fighting and you spar, go through drills, go through more drills, and then spar some more! Forms, for the TCMA practitioner, are like the roadwork, skipping, shadowboxing, etc, of a boxer...well, in a sense, they serve on that level to prepare and condition for actual combat...I don't see them being a replacement for combat practice, but they are an integral piece of the pie.
    A unique snowflake

  14. #74
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    traditional...so, what did people originally train for? fighting? i think it was so. now when you are going to take your son, and turn him into a fighter, you do not throw him to the wolves. in those days a fight could easily mean death, or worse. often the fight was with a melee weapon. this is the globe around, not just china.

    many cultures trained differently.

    so in china the use of forms was part of the training process. but not all. why use the forms for the training?

    we need not point out the obvious physical attributes that will be enhanced by rigorous form work. that is blatant.

    times change, and with change comes opportunity. the greater the change, the greater the opportuinity. i think that global communication is one of the larges changes to ever happen to mankind.

    is it not wise to share our knowledge and sciences, in all areas? does not every culture have thier own answer to the questions that have plague all peoples?

    opportunity.

    right now, more so than ever, we are feeling the changes of this communication. feeling the opportunities bloom.

    i say make the most of it. does not our martial arts teach us that adaption is the key?

    take what is usefull from anything you find, use it.

    i find forms usefull. is that all i practice? LMAO...no. that would be stupid. but the thing is, i can FEEL the effect they have. thats enough for me. its a different effect then what i get from a good solid sparring match.

    forms are a way of getting the body to move with a pre designed "style" so to speak. if you learn without form, your fighting will be much different than the person who has had a style engrained into thier motion.

    its just that within form is the style, and within the style, is the design of its creator. thats why some styles are weak and some are strong, it depends on the styles originator and those that have upheld its tradition. many styles have died with thier creators.
    A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
    ~Sima Qian

    Master pain, or pain will master you.
    ~PangQuan

    "Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
    ~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching

    You know you want to click me!!

  15. #75
    quality vs quantity.

    if you know ten thousand techniques, it is not as good as you know or master one technique well.

    in the old time, you may practice one move over and over. that move or technique becomes your absolute move.

    you may build other moves around your absolute move. you may have general defenses and then set up moves for your absolute move.

    famous examples:

    half step Beng Quan in Xing Yi.

    Ban Lan Chui in Yang Tai Chi.

    single exchange palm in Ba Gua etc.

    --


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