The tenth animal of CLF?

[CLFNole]

I agree it could be either or depending on lineage. Possibly one lineage has it as a deer and hence some movements might have that influence while othes who had it as a tiger cub have movements associated with that.

We all know from experience that various movements associated with animals don't always look like an animal's movement. So while something might look tiger like or panther like it is hard to say without a doubt what animal is being depicted. Then you have the whole poem style for techinques. Without knowing what went into the creation of sets it is very hard to say what someone was thinking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Holy crap !! 107 posts !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, yours was #108. Why did you continue???????


'sheet' i just realized i added to this confusion.........

Sucker......

[Indestructible]

In some lines the ten animals were dragon (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), monkey (猴) and marten (貂)

Small tiger / cat like animal could be Marten which is in the weasel family.

[cjurakpt]

In some lines the ten animals were dragon (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), monkey (猴) and marten (貂)

Small tiger / cat like animal could be Marten which is in the weasel family.

uh oh Dave & Mike - he's getting close to uncovering the secret of Weasel Pai...

[extrajoseph]

9 of the 10 animal forms are the same: (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), and monkey (猴). The last one differs from different people and style.

CLF Chan Yiu-Chi used the Golden Deer (character for a roe deer with a gold radical to the left) in his manuscripts.

Hung Kuen, and for some reason WDF’s CLF, used the Tiger Cub.

Others, like the Black Tiger 10 Animals form, used the Marten.

Why the variations? The reason being although the 3 characters are written differently and have different meanings, they all sounded much the same in Guandong dialects and since most instructions in the past were passed down verbally first and then written down later on, that led to discrepancies over time.

[lkfmdc]

anything is possible, haven't we learned that yet?

[diego]

9 of the 10 animal forms are the same: (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), and monkey (猴). The last one differs from different people and style.

CLF Chan Yiu-Chi used the Golden Deer (character for a roe deer with a gold radical to the left) in his manuscripts.

Hung Kuen, and for some reason WDF’s CLF, used the Tiger Cub.

Others, like the Black Tiger 10 Animals form, used the Marten.

Why the variations? The reason being although the 3 characters are written differently and have different meanings, they all sounded much the same in Guandong dialects and since most instructions in the past were passed down verbally first and then written down later on, that led to discrepancies over time.

words changing over time is something...um, would it be a problem if one guy is doing skunk style when he should be doing Buffallo? a deer and a cat move mad different, how did the forms change?.

[extrajoseph]

In MA as in life, things constantly evolve and change, but if there is direct transmission and constant practice and renewal, then the chance of them deviate from the original source is less.

When the transmission is broken or the practice has not been kept up, then people will make things up later on without a true understanding and without a constant remainder from the source.

WDF is a good example in this case; he claimed to have direct kuen-po materials from Chan Heung’s descendants. If that being the chance, then he would have seen how they have written the character for Biao and know the exact nature of the animal and the spirit of the form it intends to transmit.

Families always have a way to hide their secrets from the outsiders, unless we are in the inner chamber, we will only be guessing; then the result is only heated discussions without any evidence to support our speculations.

I have seen the original manuscript and that is why I am speaking with confidence, but you don't know for sure that I am telling the truth, so the only way for you to make certain is to check it out with Chan Heung's descendants, if you want to know what King Mui lineage do with their 10 animals forms.

I don't know anything about Hung Gar or others, so I kept quiet as to what they would do in this regard. Please remember the topic of this thread is "The 10 animals of CLF ?".

XJ

[nospam]

extrajoseph

..yours is one outlook and a very strict traditional one at that. We all know you are a die-hard traditionalist in your belief and practise, but change is not all bad and does not necessarily mean change due from lack of understanding.

..many believe kung fu should change or at least has the capacity to change or it does change..period. I believe with each successive generation kung fu does change because we all move, feel, think, act, and learn differently.

..I don't believe anything is wrong with not changing, and history shows us more has gone wrong with change! Regardless, change tends to be inevitable and can also be for good or in the least..just different from what was. In the natural order of movement( ie kung fu), as I see it, change is inevitable. Holding on to what was or the traditional is yet one more way of doing anything and is only better or worse as perceived by the individual.

..and history is only as accurate as the person(s) recording it. History has shown it can be wrong. Of course this general debate could go on endlessly.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon

[redmantis3]

Many excellent responses. Greatly appriciated.

Although we may never know the identity of the actual beast that our KF ancestors had in mind when creating the form; we have at least come to the concensus that it was some kind of Tiger-Like creature. Those who have the Deer and Marten in their lineage, it may have been a tech. error many years ago, or maybe a replacement used by someone who didn't learn all 10, or it could even be that somewhere along the line someone just felt that system would be better served by a different animal.

As for the second set of 5-animals, I would be interested to hear in what order everyone teaches them and if there's a reason for that order. Also, do any of you have more than one set for these 5 (i.e. in Ng Ga Kuen we have the Smart Monkey and Golden Monkey).


Steven Perez
S5CBA

[extrajoseph]

extrajoseph

..yours is one outlook and a very strict traditional one at that. We all know you are a die-hard traditionalist in your belief and practise, but change is not all bad and does not necessarily mean change due from lack of understanding.

..many believe kung fu should change or at least has the capacity to change or it does change..period. I believe with each successive generation kung fu does change because we all move, feel, think, act, and learn differently.

..I don't believe anything is wrong with not changing, and history shows us more has gone wrong with change! Regardless, change tends to be inevitable and can also be for good or in the least..just different from what was. In the natural order of movement( ie kung fu), as I see it, change is inevitable. Holding on to what was or the traditional is yet one more way of doing anything and is only better or worse as perceived by the individual.

..and history is only as accurate as the person(s) recording it. History has shown it can be wrong. Of course this general debate could go on endlessly.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon

Dear Nospam

I am neither a strict traditionalist nor against changes. I use history and tradition as a yardstick to mark my innovations, therefore it is in my interest to have an accurate history and a genuine tradition to give me an accurate frame of reference and to avoid repeating the same mistakes in history.

If you appreciate the interplay of the yin yang complementary opposites, then you know history/tradition and innovation/changes are not mutually exclusive. Anythiong including history can be wrong if we do not take care and being serious in seeking the truth.

XJ

[lkfmdc]

After consulting with extremely respected mastes, I have discovered the TRUE original 100% accurate nature of the 10th CLF animal!

[extrajoseph]

Many excellent responses. Greatly appriciated.

As for the second set of 5-animals, I would be interested to hear in what order everyone teaches them and if there's a reason for that order. Also, do any of you have more than one set for these 5 (i.e. in Ng Ga Kuen we have the Smart Monkey and Golden Monkey).

Steven Perez
S5CBA

There is no particular reason for their preferred order, except the particular sequence of names sound good, making them poetic and easy to remember.

It is the season reason for the way we remember the sequence of the Five Elements in Chinese philosophy. Gum Mook Shui Phor Tu, instead of something else.

[nospam]

It's all good.


nospam
bak hsing kwoon