My thoughts on chi sao

[travelsbyknight]

To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap. This means...NO RANDOM PANSY SHOTS WITHOUT A STRIKE unless the other person's trap isn't sufficient enough to keep your arms from striking.

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It's not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping.

I don't care if it's wing chun or southern mantis or whatever.

I had the displeasure of watching people attempt to chi sao at the 2003 Wong Fei Hung tournament. They were pushing each other off the platform and wrestling most of the time. One of the sifus even tried to explain trapping to them...but to no avail.

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?

[yuanfen]

Chi Sao is not just about trapping limbs. You were closer IMO in your first statement-control- control yourself and try to control your opponent.

I am not a fan of chi sao tournaments-lots of sloppy work in some of the one's that I have seen.

[travelsbyknight]

Here's my definition of a trap. Either I have both of your arms trapped with my one arm leaving my other hand to strike, or I have both of my arms on the outside gate of one of your arms, which neutralizes your other arm. Hmm, I hope that's clear. How else would you control an opponent if not through a trap? Control also involves footwork and having the right angle and moving forward.

[JAFO]

There are some schools where the primary Chi-Sao method demonstrated is to lock up on the center and (try to) drive through. I see photos of them pushing each other across the room, "in stucture". After a certain point it becomes about who is bigger and heavier rather than who has technique. Real cave-man, Shoto-Kan type stuff, IMO.

I could tell you guys a story about that, but it involves someone who's a contributor on this board and I'm afraid you guys would figure it out. Suffice it to say they (supposedly) don't believe a fak or a geng to the neck, of which they took about 50, means anything. They did apparently get the point when their throat was grabbed instead. Go figure.

With them expending that much forward energy, it's hard to miss. That is, unless you jump the gun and either try to stick or else start chasing hands. Then it turns into back-yard wrestling.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap. This means...NO RANDOM PANSY SHOTS WITHOUT A STRIKE unless the other person's trap isn't sufficient enough to keep your arms from striking.

Wing Chun doesn't try to control the other, but it appears that way. It's about self-control, but is all offensive, breaking the opponent down and striking when he's helpless.

Chi sao to the extent it leads to best practice for defense and offense, develops this. Obviously, chi cao takes a lot of practice in which partners give and take. I agree it isn't necessarily about who hits who. In fact, if the opening is there and one knows it, it isn't necessary to hit your partner; it's fine to just continue practicing by letting the moment pass and resetting your relative positions.

In the end, we benefit by advancing our partners' skills as training with skilled partners improves our own skills. So be generous. One should beware of taking advantage of one's own superiority in fighting skill as the beginner soon learns, some better than others, and ultimately the lack of discipline/compassion within a school will come back to haunt one.

Regards,

[PaulH]

In our own forum, My Sihing Greg Leblanc graciously provided us the original article before it got edited a bit by the mag. publisher. I will post various parts of it here for your perusal's pleasure:

---------------------------------------------------------

"Qi sao is the bridge in Wing Chun training from learning concepts and techniques, to putting them into practice and then ultimately being able to fight with them. It provides a platform from which the practitioner can safely develop his/her abilities and test the
abilities of others. In its early stages Qi Sao training is done in a
prescribed manner, usually practiced without the benefit of footwork techniques. At its most advanced levels Qi Sao becomes an exercise in the training of skills such as control and feeling, the yin and yang hands (soft/tight) and developing the ability to fight naturally. Of paramount importance in a Wing Chun student's advancement in Qi Sao training is the development of the Yin and Yang hands (yin within yang and yang within yin), the two hands being used in opposite ways for the same action. An example of this would be making one hand tight and the other soft, such as when using the hands in combination for a simultaneous attack and defense action. Other examples of yin/yang hands are using a disturb and attack combination, switching the power point emphasis, changing the opponent's correct facing combined with an attack, becoming soft/tight when facing tight/soft and being able to switch between both hands as needed."

"The highest levels of Qi Sao practice rarely involves striking, and
always focuses on the natural fighting style developed when a
practitioner has mastered the form of his/her art and now acts and re-acts in a flowing, spontaneous manner. Grandmaster Yip Man was said to never have used crossing hand techniques (i.e. striking) in Qi Sao, rather he would only control the action and movement of his opponent. Qi Sao practice is considered a kind of playing; it is definitely not a form of street fighting. Nor is Qi Sao a type of challenge fighting (beimo), Qi Sao is a friendly training match between fellow practitioners. It is said that being a good fighter does not also mean being good at Qi Sao, but if you can become proficient in both then you have a special ability indeed. Ultimately contact training in Wing Chun can be broken down into 4 separate categories, of which Qi Sao is only one part:

1. Two person technique training

2. Qi Sao (sticky hands)

3. Beimo (challenge fighting)

4. Fighting for ones life

These 4 levels categorize the main differences in how a Wing Chun practitioner views his/her contact training experience. This ranges from pre-arranged practice to a life or death situation, of course fighting for your life is not technically a training experience. But it is important to mention because the mind set is very different at each of these levels."

"The second level of Wing Chun contact training brings in the elements of wanting to make the hit (a.k.a. crossing hand) and to not be hit;
here the classic Qi Sao training takes place. Ego rears it's ugly
head and the full force of Wing Chun character development begins to
work it's magic. My teacher Sifu Gary Lam (Lam Man Hoc) always says
that everyone must go by the same road, and Qi Sao for most of us is
when the road starts getting bumpy. The most common mistake made here
is viewing this stage of training as fighting. Qi Sao should be a
little playful, trained with a generous spirit. Sifu Lam says that
you need to have a big heart to do Qi Sao effectively. At this level
the problem is not being able to hit someone, but rather can you
control and feel his or her actions instead. Sifu Lam says this
control of our opponent is the key to progressing to higher levels of
ability in Wing Chun; the techniques used advances from striking our
opponent only, to more sophisticated ways of fighting. Additionally
doing Qi sao in this fashion involves controlling the distance and
power applied in practice, if we trained with uncontrolled strikes,
Qi Sao would not last very long and dental bills would be very high.
Thus we not only strive to control our opponent's actions, but
equally important we endeavor to develop an ability to control our
own actions as well. The skilled practitioner on first contact with
his/her training partners arms can sense their strengths and
weaknesses, being able to feel their physical structure and level of
development immediately. A master of Qi Sao can predict an opponents
every move, using a highly developed ability that almost seems to
mimic a sixth sense. Qi Sao is as much a contest of cunning and a
test of intelligence, as it is a physical challenge of skill. Sifu
Lam continually emphasizes throughout the Qi Sao training experience
that without being able to control our own mind, emotions and
actions, as well as control our opponent's actions, the higher levels
of Wing Chun usage will be beyond our grasp.

The third level of contact training in Wing Chun is were things
acquire a significantly different nature, we leave the protected
world of true training and venture into less than charted lands. This
level represents an actual fight, but this fight is arranged ahead of
time and is between trained participants (Beimo or skill comparison).
Here there is a real danger of injury, people can loose teeth and get
bones broken. This is the activity that after 60 victories in beimo
made the late Wong Shun Leung (Sigung) so famous, having been given
the nickname "king of the challenge fight". It was also the real
brutality of beimo that convinced Sigung Wong to eventually stop
fighting, having accidentally blinded his final opponents left eye.
Under generally controlled conditions and among opponents who respect
one another, beimo can be the ultimate experience in testing a
practitioner's skill. This is not street fighting, but the control
that was exercised in Qi Sao training is put aside. We want to win
against, but not seriously injure our honored opponent. Some of
Sigung Wong's life long friends were former beimo opponents, having
gained mutual respect and admiration for one another through the
experience.

The last level of contact training is not really training at all,
unless of course you happen to be a professional soldier. This level
is mentioned only because in each of the three above categories the
attitude was different; here the experience gained from hard training
is summoned in a cruel totality. In the first level we had an open,
receptive approach; our goal was to master the basics of technique.
In the second level we ideally wanted to have a generous spirit
focused on training and development of skill; the only person you
should have been competing with was yourself. The third level can be
called a kind of free fighting tournament experience (beimo); rules
or rounds do not govern this stage of training. Beimo is an actual
fight, but the big difference is that the participants fight for the
experience of it, not to deliberately injure or maim the opponent.
Accidents can happen in this fighting environment of full power
strikes'; this is as dangerous as so-called "training" can get. The
last category of the four types of contact training is mentioned here
for the purpose of discussion only. The mind set here is appropriate
only when defending your life, for whatever reason. The practitioner
adopts a cruel, vengeful attitude. This is using Wing Chun in its
most direct and powerful way, here you will see emergency techniques
from the formerly secret Bil Jee form, designed for one thing only,
to neutralize our enemy! This is life or death, kill or be killed.
Here words like butcher and destroy come to mind, this is the tooth
and nail of human nature, honed to a fine edge through years of
training. This kind of application is probably most like the original
intentions for Wing Chun usage, that being for revolution, revenge
and assassination. As members of a good and civil society, and
dedicating to fostering the same, these kinds of techniques are not
emphasized in normal training and are taught only to advanced
students.

Qi Sao as it is practiced in Sifu Lam's school provides an
opportunity to develop, enhance and as he calls it "upgrade" our
abilities. One of the most profound examples of this, and possibly
the highest ideal trained for in an entire career of practice, is the
essence of the Wing Chun song " loi lou hoi sung, lat sao chay chun".
Roughly translated this refers to the ultimate accomplishment in the
Wing Chun fighting style; to embrace/hold what comes, escort/send off
what leaves and when contact is lost attack to the center/weak point
immediately. This lofty skill can only be developed under pressure,
in the crucible of Qi Sao. Being able to apply it at will, going with
and guiding your opponent, fighting in the natural style of an expert
who has transcended the form of his art, this is the highest
accomplishment realized in action. Here at this level there is no
Wing Chun, you are Wing Chun. You fight without thought for correct
or incorrect technique; your response is automatic and instinctive.
Exhibiting an icy calm and a seamless combination of key attributes
(called jun/accuracy, wan/stability, fai/speed and geng/power) that
comes from years of experience, skills are demonstrated that are the
stuff of legends. This was the legacy left by the founders of Wing
Chun Kung Fu, nothing less than true martial arts mastery. The road
to finding that legacy begins with Qi Sao, the soul of Wing Chun."

[AndrewS]

Travelsbyknight,

Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the 'rules' of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- 'trapping' is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS said:

"Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills for fighting..."

That's exactly right.

Chi sao "competitions" are therefore a complete waste of time.

[anerlich]

At my academy, chi sao includes clinching, pummelling, trapping, striking, arm drags, duckunders, takedowns, throws. Or it can just be the more commonly seen energy drill with bridges and strikes. What "rules" there are depend on prior agreement between the participants, and these are more the parameters of a drill, rather than a competition where movements are "fair" or "unfair".

If this offends anybody, IMO it's their problem.

As Victor and Andrew said, it's a drill.

IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard and their makeup and illusions smudged (no offence meant to female or cross-dressing forum members).

[anerlich]

So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill

Yes.

[Gangsterfist]

Chi sao, to me is more about building up a sense of whats happening. Its a tool that helps develope certain skills that can be useful when using a trapping close range style of martial arts. Now, I won't go into it in great detail, that should be done by your sifu. Also, I think one of the major problems with kung fu today is how everyone over analyzes everything and breaks it down into this complicated science. Which is kind of going against part of the design of wing chun itself. WCK was designed to be simple, yet complex. Simple to learn, and once you reach a certain level you actually realize the complexity of it all. I recently read like a 20 page article on the wing chun "straight punch" - it was ridiculus.

It is about control. Controlling your opponet and more importantly controlling yourself. Eventually you will learn that getting trapped is not the end, its just a different scenario you have to get out of. Then adding in footwork and movement you have dynamics. This should teach you to feel out situations because no two chi saos will be the same, just like no two fights will be the same.

[kj]

Originally posted by PaulH
In our own forum, My Sihing Greg Leblanc graciously provided us the original article <snip

Thanks for sharing Greg's excellently written essay.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard and their makeup and illusions smudged (no offence meant to female or cross-dressing forum members).

Is it possible there is a slight over-generalization embedded in there somehwere?

Regards,
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kathy Jo:

I'm only guessing now...but maybe Andrew was just so impressed with your make-up the last time he saw you...assuming that he has ever seen you...

that he just dreads the thought of anyone ever messing it up during chi sao competition.

[PaulH]

Kathy,

Coming from you, it is quite a compliment to Greg. I'll let him know. Thanks!

Regards,
PH