Shaolin Literature

[bungle]

I think were talking about two different paths here Gene. The one i was refering to is spiritual and has no correlation with age. That is actually something someone else said on the sedona method forum. We were discussing Christianity and its relation to the sedona methods goal of freedom(satori). Lester Levenson often used the phrase christ conciousness when discussing the freedom and christianity and many of us debated what christianity was really about.

The best post of the discussion, imo, was someone just posted that the further we go with the sedona method the less important belief becomes. Why?

Because as you release your mind what is left is pure awareness and experience of the world. The less thinking you do, the happier you are. Thinking clouds your experience of life and makes you unhappy. Not that Lester is saying you shouldn't think, just that if you let it control you then your a victim and your life is going to be out of control.

The other beutiful thing about the method is intuition becomes very important; Lester said "Intuition is only right 100% of the time". Basically, as you get clearer and clearer you simply let go out not having the answers and get them! Good stuff. Ok, now i gotta go practice my sedona releasing....

[GeneChing]

canglong: The problem is that oral history could have been created very recently. Let's take Shaolin Temple - a common criticism is that it is a reconstruction - that there is no connection to the original Shaolin practice prior to the Cultural Revolution. If we just base our findings on oral/practice tradition, how can we refute such an argument? On the contrary, when some one makes a genuine scholarly find that confirms something we are saying/doing, that's very exciting. So what if it doesn't go back to Tamo's time? At least, it refutes the old Cult Rev argument.

bungle:

Intuition is only right 100% of the time

Wow, if that was so, I'd be rich from my old gambling days. Sounds like you have a lot of faith in Sedona. I think our dialog is being hampered by the media of the forum here. When I mentioned age, I was referring specifically to martial practice (as a spiritual path). You can say that age has no efect on that, then I might retort "how old are you?" In terms of faith, the fundamental assumption of any spiritual practice is that there is something more - something beyond the physical world. That, in itself, is a leap of faith. Now if I understand what you're saying, its about the dissolution of structure once spiritual transformation is achieved. Many of the methods to attain transformation are just that - methods. Like a road to the mountain, once you get to the mountain, you forget the road. Tamo was a big proponent of this - the notion of sudden enlightenment.

[bungle]

The sedona method is a tool, a device to regain control of your mind and to transform it. It is very simple. I do not need faith.

Gene, as i said earlier. Faith is nice but shouldn't be relied upon.

What is faith? It is wishful thinking really. A strongly held belief. As i said in my last post. As you release your thoughts you begin to see that you are not your mind or your body and they are merely tools. Being that faith is a product of the mind, then it becomes less important.

Your right about the method but that isn't to say some are not better than others. They frequently call them rafts from one shore to the other in buddhism.

The reason for starting a spiritual path might include faith that eventually it will bring great reward but if you are not reaping those rewards as you progress then there would be no evidence to indicate your faith is wise and so i would recommend dropping that spiritual path.

I cannot be a mainstream christian because i am not prepared to rely on faith without evidence. To me that is a gamble and one nobody needs to take.

As for intuition. Intuition is like being guided by something other than yourself and it is a progressive thing that increases the further down the path you go. The reason we cannot rely on intuition is because we have too much filtering and biasing in the way. Once that drops away you start to reveal buddha nature which is always right.

[GeneChing]

That is faith in the modern age of science. If you believe that there is a science to the spiritualism, that can border on fanaticism.

[bungle]

Gene. I'm not going to harp on about this. My motivation for replying to you was because i found it fun to debate. Like everything though, it comes down to personal choice. Life is about choice.

For me, sedona allows me to continually evolve as a person and eventually achieve emotional freedom. There is nothing fanatical about this.

Any negative emotions get left behind in the dust as we grow. In sedona we have a chart abreviated to AGFLAPCAP. You travel from left to right as you use sedona.

Apathy,grief,fear,lust,anger,pride,courage,accepta nce,peace.

Where am i right now? Where am i when i reply to your posts and harper on about sedona? Pride. I'm stuck in pride; that is my home based right now. Don't worry, i'm working on it.

But right now. My opinion is that people dvide the spirtual and material too readily. Lester said that the physical and spirtual are the same when you see it. He hasn't lied to me yet. At the same time none of what he says has negative effects on me or influences my decision too much. Apart from of course, the actual sedona method. There is no need to listen to Lesters talks....

To me, spirtualism is all about the mind. I feel psychotherapy is far more spirtual than spiritualism based in dogmatic beliefs.

[bungle]

i just re read my post. Your right. It does come across as fantatical. That is because i'm fantatical though.

[bungle]

see how fantatical i am. I'm posting another message!

Lama Surya Das calls it western buddhism.

Finally, it is a natural ability. ALL YOU DO IS LEARN TO USE IT CONCIOUSLY. It is releasing; you do it when you laugh!!!

Sedona method AKA the release technique!!!

[GeneChing]

see how fantatical i am. I'm posting another message!

lol. I hope you're saying all of this somewhat tongue-in-cheek because I am. Like you say, it's about the laughter (although I've also found that passing wind is a great release too ) I don't mean to be critical of Sedona in any way.

My point is more about faith in something beyond the ordinary, faith in the existence of the divine, not necessarily in the sense of GOD or something, but more that something lies beyond and that something is unifying. This is interesting to CMA because of the notion of qi. Qi is so intrinsic to CMA, but too use it, you have to have some faith. This is why it always amuses me to see people try to explain/define qi in psuedo-scientific terms - bio-magnetic energy and such - that very action will keep them from ever getting to it. It's sort of like the Heisenberg effect. to understand CMA, you must have faith in qi.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
That is faith in the modern age of science. If you believe that there is a science to the spiritualism, that can border on fanaticism.

but then yu have the laws of physics.....

I know the Dalai says that to rty to win a spiritual argument based on science is fruitless or similar but it doesn't remove the fact that sienceand physics govern the universe and more specifiallly but loosely "energies"...which when we talk spiritual ...to keep out of thatfantasy world...ie: dude in sky ...you to helll...you to heaven..fire, brimstone, everlasting peace...etc etc....

it has to make sense intellectually....


but that's where it gets tricky right???

I guess that's why the concept ofempty mind, the void and nopthingness becomes extremely important ....to avoid falun gong type scenarios

[bungle]

Lotus, That is why i say the best religions are those based around an intellectual method that can be tested that will lead to greater understanding. So as long as the method is working for you then you don't care about the end result anyway...That's why buddhism can be studied by science as is now being done by the mind and life peeps. Read destructive emotions? Wicked book!

Gene, the faith in qi thing. I know what you mean. I tried practicing chi gong but i couldn't keep it up because i wasn't getting any sensation or feedback. Last week i introduced lifting the sky in the mornings nad evenings out of curiosity. Only takes 5 minutes and WKK says i should get some good results in 6 months. Not a big sacrifice 10 minutes a day for 6 months.

As for the tongue and cheek thing. I normally laugh at what you just posted (just because i find debating fun) and reply and the humour drifts a little and i get serious.

I'd say your right about the faith thing but would it matter if your content and happy? IT matters far less, i'd say that. That was my original point. Find a method that takes u up through the ranks. Raises your level of conciousness as Dr Hawkins puts it. As they always say, you probaly won't care anymore but you'll find out anyway.

[blooming lotus]

you were getting no sensation???.......


I think this more about you than it is about what you're practicing.....

[bungle]

sensation of chi energy. Yes it probaly was me. The same conclusion applies tho

[GeneChing]

Physics is a big problem for qi, especially when you get into emitting qi. Does qi obey the laws of physics? Now there's a koan for you....

This line of thinking - science vs. faith - can get really muddy quickly when taken from the spiritual standpoint. Science is clearly defined - anyone who has been trained as a scientist knows that. Anyone who has not been trained as a scientist tends to have a rather soft view of science, which can be very problematic in such a discussion. They tend to make the jump to theory too quickly and use the terminology too loosely - at least for a scientist.

Add the notion of happiness and things get really ethically messy. We Buddhists often say "may all beings be happy" but by that we imply that all beings should escape delusion and stop the wheel of life and death. If you have faith, you can just be happy in a deluded sort of way. Often I find myself thinking, probably like any one who has grappled with this issue seriously, if only faith were enough for happiness...

All debates should be fun and bring laughter.

[bungle]

One big difference between science and spirituality is that spirtuality is a personal thing. Science is seeing external results in the physical world. Spirituality might bring results in the physical world but the emphasis is on yourself.

When i mention scientific point of view i'm really saying don't accept anything on faith. Proove it to yourself then believe it.

The difference in science might be that you proove it through experiementation and the results must be objective,predictable, replicatable and measurable.

Just for information. The sedona method has been studied scientifically.

Can you really be happy in a deluded way? What is happiness? Is it just the feel good chemicals and exhiliration that can even be gotten from drugs and anti depressants? I think not. This is just a glimpse and it is deluded.

Happiness is supposedly just experiencing our true selves. The more dust you clean off that table or mirror the nicer it looks.

People who are delusional and happy are just telling themselves they are happy. It is a program that has them on auto pilot. They are fooling themselves and they won't know what real happiness is until they start cleaning off that dust.

I'll explain from my experiences. When you release a certain amount of stuff you get a shift in conciousness. Sometimes a whole filter comes down. It feels so weird, like your experiencing everything in a new way that you've never ever, ever felt! You get highs and feel good stuff but the real shifts in happiness is when the bad stuff drops away. You kinda move up a level. You feel just a little more positive and free than you used to. You get lighter and lighter. The most important thing is though. Whenever you do get a shift it makes you realise just how low you actually were! Also how far you have to go!

You think, " all that time i thought i was happy but i had no idea!". When you shift up, you realise that was nothing compared to this new way of feeling. It is a definate SHIFT, not just feeling happy! Heck i have whole days when i'm chuffed to bits but it is nothing like this shift.

On the other hand. Better delusionally happy than delusionally sad.

I blaber a lot....

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Physics is a big problem for qi, especially when you get into emitting qi. Does qi obey the laws of physics? Now there's a koan for you....


does a lwa of physics exist if it has yet to be substantiated?? if a tree falls and there's no-one aroundto hear it etc etc


This line of thinking - science vs. faith - can get really muddy quickly when taken from the spiritual standpoint. Science is clearly defined - anyone who has been trained as a scientist knows that. Anyone who has not been trained as a scientist tends to have a rather soft view of science, which can be very problematic in such a discussion. They tend to make the jump to theory too quickly and use the terminology too loosely - at least for a scientist.

science sciencealso involves debate and inquiry then path to prove it.....and yes, I am adept in Sciences




Add the notion of happiness and things get really ethically messy. We Buddhists often say "may all beings be happy" but by that we imply that all beings should escape delusion and stop the wheel of life and death. If you have faith, you can just be happy in a deluded sort of way. Often I find myself thinking, probably like any one who has grappled with this issue seriously, if only faith were enough for happiness...
happiness is an emotion so unless we'retalking the science of physcology it has little place......that said ..if you follow the "science " that buddhism is based on, you willattain "happiness" anyway...confuciussay : if you want to attain happiness , pratice being happy




All debates should be fun and bring laughter.

on these boards..you're kidding right