Is it just me?...

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
relying on that technology

Gangsterfist, here is the point of contention show where the article says if we know this we rely on it therefore we don't have to train anymore!

Then why don't you practice white crane and should you spar with someone else and find limitations there perhaps you may need to switch again .... hmmmm something just doesn't sound right here....

originally posted by gangsterfist
Branching out and learning as much as you can from other systems and taking what works for you and blending them into your wing chun makes you a great martial artist.

the fork in the road here ask can you learn everything about every system or can you come to understand human physiology that which governs every system in the same manner everytime.

[Gangsterfist]

The article never says that. It has become my opinion and perception that is what some people are looking at. Especially those new to martial arts. It sounds more like a sales pitch than anything.

This whole thread was started as my opinion, and my expressions towards progressing as a martial artist. You ever read any sci fi or watch any sic fi movie where man relies on technology too much and in the end it consumes them? That is the point I am getting at. I do not deny it is there, I just don't think its the end all be all of ideas behind our art.

As for the white crane sparring incident, I just was not ready for what the white crane fighter used against me. That is because I had never encountered it before that match. I had to adapt slighting and do a little long range sparring to be able to give myself better position when closing in on trapping range.

I don't see how you are misunderstanding me, but that is how it goes sometimes. I have explained myself enough and if you think that relying on all the technology behind the art is good, then that is your opinion. If you do not then you are in fact agreeing with me and arguing just to argue.

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
I read this some what ridiculous article about the wing chun punch.

point of contention show where the article says if we know this we rely on it therefore we don't have to train anymore!

originally posted by gangsterfist
The article never says that.

Well then maybe the article is not as ridiculous as you would like us to believe.

[Gangsterfist]

Hey canglong-

You are now trying to twist my words. You are not seeing any of my points and thinking unilaterally about this subject. You seem more concerned about finding small, pointless loop holes in what I have said rather than progress the conversation. You seem more concerned with arguing against whatever I say instead of expressing your own thoughts.

The author never came out and said it is the ultimate attack, but it was implied that all other techniques were flawed compared to the one being described. This kind of eltist thought about wing chun is something I completely disagree with. If you break down any martial art to its naked core you will find science, technology, and math. Wing chun is not the only one out there. THAT IS MY POINT!

Cross training is good, infact if you want to be a great martial artists I highly recomend cross training.

If you argue against everything I say, I can only assume they are relying on that technology, but when the time comes to apply it in the countless posibilities you encounter can you? Can you adapt, or are you still stuck by rules and theories in the text book?

So again, I think I am done making my point. If you wish to express your theories, thoughts, experiences, opinions, then please do so. I am trying to promote progressive conversation we can learn from; not petty arguments.

Thanks for all of those who shared their thoughts.

[anerlich]

What if your sifu's seeds have been genetically modified, thus having fewer nutrients?

You seem to be implying that genetic modification (which happens in nature all the time anyway) necessarily leads to a less nutritious product. WRONG.

Producing new strains of food plants and animals via specific breeding programs, hybridization, etc., which is genetic modification at one level at least, for specific purposes, has been a mainstay of agriculture for eons. The modification of DNA in the lab to do this certainly has inherent dangers at this early stage, but further research is justified and arguably essential if we are to attempt to feed an expanding population.

By your argument, the introduction of the pole to WC at a later stage was the beginning of the end. And according to one theory, WC was produced by combining the best of the best of the Shaolin styles. So by your argument, it was fundamentally screwed from day one.

Gangsterfist,

Technologies may be superseded, but that does not make them necessarily useless. After some major cataclysm, or if you were marooned somewhere away from civilization, those old skills like working with timber and stone will be much more useful than knowing computer programming and DNA recombination. It's overreliance on *specific* technology and overspecialization that leads species to grief.

[Gangsterfist]

Anerlich-

I agree, that is why I also stated use what is realistic to you. I do not live in the woods away from civilization so having those skills of survival not realistically needed for me. If I camped a lot and did lots of outdoors type stuff it would be more realistic. What are the possibilities I get stranded on an island, not very high, not very realistically. More than likey I would die on the sinking ship or crashing plane. Worrying about all those what if's can mislead you as well. Training what is realistic is what is best IMO.

[russellsherry]

hi marcus and gangsterfist, i will put about how i overcome my cerbal palsy and the fact i could not walk until i was 11 years old and how wing chun helped me with this on another post russell sherry thanks for the support guys

[desertwingchun2]

"The choy lay fut master that learns wing chun and takes what he can realistically do from the system and adds it to his trunk as another branch of knowledge is a true master." - GF

Um, ok, but slow down a bit. This statement doesn't address the question.

"Eventually you learn advanced techniques and modify them to fit your trunk. " - GF

If you only learn technique, how advanced can it be? Think about the Choy Li Fut master who learns Wing Chun techniques them "modifies them to fit [his] trunk", is he doing Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut or did he make his own style? - DW2

The conversation is not about the master.

-David

[Gangsterfist]

I think that ultimately it would be all of the above. Wing chun is a very versitile fighting system that can be blended with lots of other fighting systems.

I was comparing people of systems who claim to be masters (I am not disbuting their claim, I have never personally trained under them) and act like their technique is flawless compared to other systems. They back it up by scientific essays. Which is all on paper and all in theory.

I will just break it down from real experiences here.

Ground fighting:

WCK does not really address it, the answer is don't let them take you to the ground. Well, we all know that is not always an option. So what do we do then?

Training for groundfighting has also broadened my view of fighting completely. Now, that I have had training I can use it. Now that I know what can and can't be done I can apply it accordingly. Mostly Judo, Jujutsu, and wrestling is what we trained. Now I don't freeze up when in the guard position, I try to get out of it or perhaps use it to my advantage. I don't tap when my kung fu brother gets me in a decent choke, and if I lose my breath for a second that is okay. Before my grappling training I probably would have tapped out.

If I were to rely on the science behind wing chun solely I would not be able to ground fight at all.

Perhaps, I jumped the gun with the master comment.

Traditionally and historically martial artists have cross trained. Its not like you have to stick to only wing chun. Wing chun is a great martial art, but it does not have answers for everything.

If you believe that a 15 page (I think it was right around 15 pages, printed off on 8x10 standard paper, standard 14pt text) essay on the science behind the straight punch makes sense, then explain why. The thing is there are so many countless situations the straight punch could be used in, and there are so many different ways to use it. There are so many different targets to hit. Why over complicate it, why not just train it? The pheonix eye is the same thing. Why use it when you can do almost the exact same damage with a punch? If you can use it, then great for you.

My answer to your question if the practitioner was using wing chun or CLF if they trained in both...

It doesn't matter what style its considered to be as long as it works.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Cross training is good, infact if you want to be a great martial artists I highly recomend cross training.

And there it is... the JKD mentality. It all makes sense now.

[Gangsterfist]

Please explain to me how cross training is bad.

If one is not ready to cross train, and cross trains that is not the systems fault, it is the practitioners fault. So lets not use that as an excuse.

Also, could it not be disputed that Bruce Lee was one of the greatest martial artists of all time? He cross trained with a wing chun foundation.

[russellsherry]

hi gangsterfist i train i other arts as well i train in arnis under guro roland dantes his top pupial dave foggie is my direct sifu as well david was a top pupial of stevan chan peace russellsherry

[anerlich]

It has always been said that Wing Chun isn't for the common thinker.

That's always been said only by common thinkers.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Also, could it not be disputed that Bruce Lee was one of the greatest martial artists of all time?

Of his time.

Originigally posted by anerlich
That's always been said only by common thinkers.

True enough...

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix

2, no, it is always sending, it is similar to the dentist drill, what tip to use for cracking, for drilling, for polishing.... using a carbite tip or a hard rubber tip get different results.

WCK is drill and tips expert

Hi Hendrik,

I'm not sure that my question was clear. You had written

and by the way, that sun punch was a reduce power punch. the old time strike is more damaging. so, those old fellow decide to un-power it a little and make it a punch instead of a....

What I was axing was how would you characterize the old-time strike? What was the martial art of the old time punch you mentioned?

I was assuming it would involve different body mechanics than the sun punch, which I ascribed to the stretching energy, so presumably my impression of what you intended to say was incorrect.

Regards,