Is it just me?...

[Phenix]

Praise, Ritual, Symbolic, Magic, Curiousity, Details, Transformation these are different phases might existed in the journey into MA. But how and what one encounter and how far one carry them depend on person to person and condition. These form a complex system of interpretation, writing, teaching..... because everyone can be or might not be in different phases of thier journey.



Magic
-------

We as human love magic. We love those simple but deep elegant magic which is similar to the clear tranquil rainbow. And because we love magic, the quest started.


Praise and Ritual
---------------------

Usually, one faces Ritual, Prase of a system/lineage/legends one study.
By joining practising prase and/or ritual, one "ground" oneself in a lineage, a family, a system, a sifu, a legend, a school, or a tribe..ect. This "grounding" empower one atlease in one stage. Thus, Ritual and Praise boost one's sense of power. In this stage, one will grasp one system or lineage or sifu tightly as the only truth of universe. Thus, chapters and chapters of prase will be written. Lots of ceremonies, ritual will be practiced. We as human will do things which We feel empower us. and that is human.
But, someday, when one grows, these seems to become dull and suffocating and limiting. Because we, internally, knows praise and ritual, no matter how much we practice them they seems to have thier limitation. A sifu is no God, a lineage cant be the most original, a system cant cover all.....and we face with questions ans questions. Some might decide to move along to next journey via curiuosity. Some might decide to stay and believe someday one will find the magic in the riture or praise.


Symbolic
-----------

Since we love magic, and thus we communicate in symbolic term or visual thinking. Not the vertical logic thinking where every step has to link logically to next step. That is because we might "see" something which we know it is there but not quite figure out what happen. Or we believe there is an answer out there but we dont know the details implementation. Or, we have seen what is it but decide to communicate the concept in an easy way...ect. We works alots with symbolic, from the Crane of NgMui to magical TanSau of TanSauNg. And we know some symbols might have a deep meaning but some is our dream, vision, or even fantasy we created.



Curiousity
------------


There are non agenda and agenda curiousity while we look for magic.

Non agenda Curiousity is the driving force to progress. Because of this non agenda curiousity, one will going deep into a subject, taking them a part, putting them back, back and forth for many many times, asking questions, strongly disagreement.... Details are looked at in up way, down way, inside out, outside in....even upside down. So, lots and lots of 100 pages writing will be wrote. some of them is carbage, some of them is gold. but, it is a form of progess. Everyone did it differently, I am sure some of us might had tear a part a simple Tan sau, examine how many ways a tan sau can response, how to breath with a tan sau........

Agenda curiousity is a negative non grow limitation, because in this way, one has an agenda behind, Either, to proof something one has hold as the only truth, or to feeding and support one's ego via the common "we have it too" . So, one goes around to find indication, data.... to proof oneself is right. and certainly, lots of chapters can also be written about what one find out.

Curiousity link with Details, disregard which type of curiousity.



Transformation
--------------------

Transformation is about realization. Once realized, one can no longer turn back. Transformation simplified one's view, but it doesnt simplified the steps or the details of a creation. Some embrace transformation, some will resist it with all price. Transformation call for strong self security.

Similar a phoenix embrace and know, the flame burning it is its based for a better version of phoenix. A phoenix cant plan to avoid get burn. so does a transformation has to take place when the grounding in praise and ritual is no longer become the limitation of one.

Transformation has to take place from a grounding in chaos not a grounding in stable pice of land. Similar to symbolically in buddhism that the clean and pure lotus is ground mud, and the lotus has to feel very comfortable with mud. Another symbolical expression is about the balance of the root chakra, when past become a friend not a haunting Ghost, and the uncertain future is a well support system for one's grow instead of unknow fear. then, transformation will solidly proceed.

In addition, Now a days, people talk about Zen Chan.
Zen and Chan cannot yield transformation is the 5 skandals ( material, emotiomal, ..impulse) not become a friend of oneself. Spiritual attainment cannot achive if the foundation of daily life such as food, travel, living, sex, emotion... money ..ect do not become a support. Thus, the buddha attain his transformation sitting in a lotus. That lotus is the 5 skandals. esoteric wholesome teaching is needed for transformation. transformation cannot be done just with wise spiritual talks qouting from others or ancestors or understanding of some kuin kuits, or new age-- Zap and you are transform. trasformation is a journey.


For Transformation in WCK, A high degree of mastering has to take place step by step moving in from 1,structure, 2,motion, and only then can move into 3, Energy flow.

Why do you think people from WCK goes learning BJJ? Because they want to understand motion which they dont understand yet. what's wrong with that? none. Or this is telling us, one needs to move up to the second attainment Motion? and that transformation needs help outside WCK. Simple.

Why chapters and chapters was written about a sun punch?
May be it is about: praise to ground oneself, a deep understanding of sun punch, a subsconcious message of one cant go on without step into the realm of motion...ect. self affirmation .....ect We dont know. until we non agenda curiously dig in and find out. and certainly we all can learn every time we curiously examine a thing.

Complex subject, but who's wrong? None. Everyone is learning beleve it or not. It is just our ego or pride that wont admit others is right and keep agueing...fighting....But internally we know what is the truth that beyond that emotion of protecting ones' ego, one's family's, lineage's, system's, reputation. Truth reveal beyond that emotion or heavy feeling in us when we think. Check for that heavy feeling. we all guilty.

IMO, using the Chakra system and Buddhist symbolic, the crow chakra -- the lotus of thousand pedals, the unbounded concious --- has to be open. but in the support of the root and other chakras, the lotus will bloom but from mud. So is mud our friend or our enemy? is the wisdom seperate from the mud? or the mud is the source of wisdom? There is no different between that one key kuen kuit or ten pages writing of a sun punch. the diferent is do we stuck with our own agenda? can we read with non agenfa curiousity? and that is what the journey about.

I am sure this long post can be describe in three words "as it is" for those yodayoda. but for non jedi then probably this long post isnt details enough.

Am I know it all? No, it is just the dont know it all , that screw up, that realization of I am wrong, suppoting my grow.

just some thoughts.

[Gangsterfist]

To clarify one thing I am not saying every piece of kung fu literature is trash. There are good publications out there. My comment was about over complicating something as simple as a punch. When we chain punch we are extending our arms with the elbow, traveling short distances and hitting with the bottom three knuckles of the fist, connecting and aligning our fist at the wrist with our elbows inside. Generating power from the ground up with our structure. There is the science behind it.

Due to current recent events I have become a closed door student with my sifu. We are a small class. In four of five months I will no longer be able to train with him. Hopefully my sigung who is in town will take me as a new student. So these last 4 months have been intense on training. My sifu wants to close the gap between beginer and advanced students. He wants us to be ready to continue our training with either wing chun or another martial art. It is also kind of emotional as well.

Since we have begining to become more intense and train soley on combat these last few months I have had some realizations. These are all what I have gained from kung fu, so results may vary.

My observation does not only apply to wing chun either, all martial arts in general this applies to. Yes, these are my opinions and expressions so you may take what you will and leave the rest. Don't start posting about how wrong I am because I respect and give everyone else the right to their own even if I do not agree with it. Lets look at the pheonix eye fist. It relates to kung fu, and only certain systems use it. I am familiar with it due to some of the cross training I have come across. It serves its purpose, has science behind it, and is a technical aspect of striking someone. The thing is you don't need it. In fact, IMO its not even that good of a strike. You can do the same thing with a regular fist and do just as much damage, have less margin for error, and reduce the risk of injuring yourself. So my bottom opinion is yes it is effective given the situation calls for it, but its not practical. If you can pull it off then that is great, but not everyone can.

Now someone might read an article of the pheonix eye punch and think of how devestating it can be, and how cool it is and how someone would be scared of you after you hit them with it. Then you think how deadly it really is and you lose sight of practical combat movements. If your strike is not percise then you better come with another one right after it. If you don't that gives your opponet time to strike you back (or grapple, or whatever). People begin to lose sight of what is effective and what is not in reality.

The chain punch is simple, effective, to the point and destructive. It is also basic wing chun attack. Its also still a punch and there is nothing too special about it. Western boxers use it, and have used it for a long time, long before wing chun was ever publically taught. Reading a 15 page essay on the straight punch is kind of ridiculous, if you cannot apply it to real combat. Otherwise its 15 pages of theory, and theory does not mean anything in a real combat situation. Theory is good, we learn off it and expand off theory. Proof however, is way better than theory.

Training realistically is what is going to help you out the most with the ability to defend yourself. Wing chun is really about defending yourself when it comes down to it. Even a chain punch comes to the center first guarding your body before it attacks. You are creating a structure that is used for fighting with science behind it. Look at the SLT. Its the first form and the most simple. There is no foot work involved it just builds structure. It also means little idea if you translate it. This to me is so important and so overlooked in martial arts on having "the little idea." Do not dwell on the complicatedness, technology, or science behind what you are doing, just do it. Act, do not react. When we break things down to the smallest detail on something simple like a straight punch, are we not dwelling on it too much? It is a good idea to learn everything about the straight punch to better understand it. It is even better to just do the straight punch and not even think twice about it. You should train your wing chun on a realistic level, otherwise it will not be as effective as it could outside of sparring and in tournaments.

If you train this way then I would believe you have a great sifu as I have had. Its kind of like what Ernie has said in the past. You can take out all your sayings, philosophy and science and throw them out the window. In a real fight you must act and not think of all the complicated stuff that goes with it.

Perhaps kung fu is not progressing in this way and its just a trend I have noticed and will go away in due time. Learning all the minute details behind your art is good for learning more about your art. Training for real life situations you can throw all that out the window if you cannot back up your science.

Anyways, these are just some of my thoughts and opinions of what I have seen lately. I also realize that perhaps I may be growing in the wrong direction and will always try my best to not become some elitist behind a single art, but keep my mind open to all possibilities.

[Gangsterfist]

BTW, phenix excellent post. I never said I was 100% right, its just some thoughts I have been pondering lately.

[Miles Teg]

THeres so much written that I didnt bother reading all of it. So sorry if someone mentioned this.

I think that if it interests people it is OK to write in detail about the mechanics of a punch or whatever.

One could write or read pages and pages of literature on chi sau but when practicing there knowlege/understanding they only need to do one thing and thats Chi Sao. All Im saying is something similar to the expression [100 words to describe a picture]. What is discribed in these pages of literature could be demonstrated in 2 seconds.
Such literature can be interesting to a person who is detached from their lineage head guy or seniors and wants to know whether what they are practicing is consistent with other people in different branches around the world. Or even to compare philosophies between schools / lineages / training mehtods.

Its just one of those things that either interest you or dont. For me the whole [street/reality traing] concept posts and literature bore me. In my opinion if I was that paranoid about the street there are about a hundred things I could do before preparing myself for "multiple attacker with knives" type situations.

[Phenix]

I never said I was 100% right, its just some thoughts I have been pondering lately.-----


Dont even have to have a second though on explanation.

Those who went through knew, those who have not gone through will not understand.

why explain? Just present truely.
And you might change tommorrow, or might stick with it.

A sun can post its view, a moon can post its view, a star can post its view. a .....

People post from different chakra consciousnes or different type of spiral dynamics. there is no standard view. that is the beauty.

---------------------------
1 BEIGE (A-N) based on biological urges/drives; physical senses dictate the state of being

2 PURPLE (B-O) threatening and full of mysterious powers and spirit beings which must be placated and appeased

3 RED (C-P) l like a jungle where the tough and strong prevail while the weak serve; nature is an adversary

4 BLUE (D-Q) controlled by a Higher Power that punishes evil and eventually rewards good works and Right living

5 ORANGE (E-R) full of resources to develop and opportunities to make things better and bring prosperity

6 GREEN (F-S) the habitat wherein humanity can find love and purposes through affiliation and sharing

7 YELLOW (A'-N' or G-T) a chaotic organism where change is the norm and uncertainty a usual state of being

8 TURQUOISE (B'-O' or H-U) a delicately balanced system of interlocking forces in jeopardy at humanity's hands.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Lets look at the pheonix eye fist. ... The thing is you don't need it.... my bottom opinion is yes it is effective given the situation calls for it, but its not practical. If you can pull it off then that is great, but not everyone can.

1. If it's effective, then it's practical.
2. Kung fu is about options, not limitations.
3. You can if you train. More training, more options.


Gangsterfist, there is so much more to a punch then going from A to B. What happens if it needs to go to C. the structure the punch may need to change. If you don't understand the science behind it, you won't know how to change it. Sorry for the news,, BUT. BUT. BUT. Wing Chun DOES have more than one punch.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Keng Geng

Wing Chun DOES have more than one punch.

In my search, SLT has more then a couple energy issueing technics. Notice, Not identify by shape here but energy pattern. IE Tan sau itself has a few ways of issuing...

Thus, A palm up or Tan Sau shape or water shape is not edequate to illustrate the energy pattern and motion type of wck.

This is where details and details come in. Similar to a map, the more detail it has, the clearer the direction. Certainly, this is not for those dont know how to drive but sit infront of computer simulator thinking they are driving.

Change is reality, and A Tan Sau is not just a Tan Sau when sensing and adaptive tracking involve.

There is a term in WCK--- chasing hand.
Chasing hand's concept applied as far as when to stop a Tan sau or kang Sau. A lots can be discuss there about the sensing process/sensitivity...mind/body, adapatation.... ect. That is the stuffs in the motion catagory.

Thus, it is not something can be described in one sentence.

True it is saying without 10000 spearing one doesnt know what is spearing about. But, after that 10000 spearing one will find out it is just a begining. Because there are lots and lots of people spear more then 10000 spears and in a different way. Now, what do one going to do? That 10000 spears is just a tikect to enter to disneyland. And, the roller coaster not even started yet.

[Gangsterfist]

I was just using it as an example. If you feel confident enough you can strike my bicept with a pheonix eye punch in combat then great for you.

That is my whole point Keng Geng. There is no concept or exact science to fighting. Fighting is complete chaos.

If something is effective it does not make it practical. Scissoring someones arm into an armbar with your legs on the ground is real effective. In a real fight its not practical. Thinking that if something is effective then its automatically practical is the kind of thought I am trying to avoid.

The wing chun punch is one of the most basic wing chun attacks that I was using as an example.

Again people are not seeing what I stated.

It is a good idea to document wing chun and all its techniques and break it down to analyze it. We can learn from this. However, everything we learn from this type of study is theory. It becomes reality when you get into a real combat situation. If your training is all theory then I would say chances are not that high for you to win. If you training is a set of proofs of what you can and cannot do in a real fight then I would say your chances are higher.

If you do not train this way then how will you know what you practically can and cannot do in a fight? If there is a better method let me know. If you can practically pull off a more advanced move that requires a high skill of control then that is great; and you are a great martial artist. If you cannot, then use stuff that is more practical. Of course for everyone its going to be different.

Writing all these technical documents and breaking things down to the naked core of it is not a bad thing. Making it sound like a sales pitch saying its superior and make it sound fail proof is completely ludacris.

Like I said earlier if you train this way then keep doing it, you have a great sifu. I have trained with both good and bad teachers and to me that is what makes the difference. A sifu that can honestly come out and admit that all of these scientific moves mean nothing if you cannot apply them in real situations is someone who is practical. That you should train realistically for what is good for you. There are many factors, height, weight, speed, endurance, will, so on and so forth. Each person is different and will naturally be better and some things, which would make them more practical.

I still train as much as you can, and know all that you can know, but only use what you can keep under control.

[Phenix]

I was just using it as an example. If you feel confident enough you can strike my bicept with a pheonix eye punch in combat then great for you. --------



Hey for fun to tease you , dont take it so serious.
Nah, Not bicept

Late Cho Hong-Choy taught me to use it for cutting , slicing, ...ect , wrist and elbow.. or knee ..... ect.

Yes, if they have long arm take out that arm.

Yes, take out that immmobile elbow, that tan sau, that man sau in bai jong.

when reversely use, for throat lock and breaking finger......

It is a whole system man

But sure it is not about

A man, A pen, a man and a pen, a pen and a man. a man has a pen. a pen belongs to a man, a man graps a pen. A pen graped by a man........ never ending sentences but only about a man and a pen.




It is a good idea to document wing chun and all its techniques and break it down to analyze it. We can learn from this. However, everything we learn from this type of study is theory.

It becomes reality when you get into a real combat situation. If your training is all theory then I would say chances are not that high for you to win.
If you training is a set of proofs of what you can and cannot do in a real fight then I would say your chances are higher. -------

There might be some truth in this. But,
Do we have to destroy cars and cars in order to learn driving?
Life is not that simple, that's why it is beautiful.

[Gangsterfist]

No we do not need to destroy cars to learn to use them.

In fact we can know very little about the science behind a car and still drive a car.

The pheonix eye can be used to strike any soft tissue and scrape the breastplate like you mentioned. However, its a move that requires lots of training and control. A straight punch requires less, and is pretty much just as effective.

I mentioned bicept because that would be a harder target. However, the bicept is very tender on the inside and you can penetrate right to the bone. It hurts to get hit there.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

The pheonix eye can be used to strike any soft tissue and scrape the breastplate like you mentioned. However, its a move that requires lots of training and control. A straight punch requires less, and is pretty much just as effective.

Tell you a secrete Yim Wing-Chun told me in ,my dream

phenix eye is used in old time for top to down strike.
Sun punch is for a down to up strike. to take advantage of the dynamic motion/momentum.

so, up to down use pheonix, down to up use sun punch. different starting location different condition different methods. Different tools for different things. nothing is free nothing needs no training and nothing will work everywhere.

and by the way, that sun punch was a reduce power punch. the old time strike is more damaging. so, those old fellow decide to un-power it a little and make it a punch instead of a....

belief or not


BTW,
I mentioned bicept because that would be a harder target. However, the bicept is very tender on the inside and you can penetrate right to the bone. It hurts to get hit there.------

It would be nice to shock the internal, penetrating thru the muscles, and one doesnt use punch in the area with lots of muscle
We need a 1800 stun gun. opps more wck writting needed for that stun gun

Understood what you try to communicate. just trying to communicate about different stuffs from outer space. like pokemons.
see they exist... and to be a pokemon trainer one needs to be familiar with all types of pokemons. just Pikachu is not enough

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
This is where details and details come in. Similar to a map, the more detail it has, the clearer the direction. . Certainly, this is not for those dont know how to drive but sit infront of computer simulator thinking they are driving.

Gangsterfist and remember this is from someone who originally agreed with your opening post.

[Phenix]

Gangsterfist and remember this is from someone who originally agreed with your opening post.---------

Does one always totally agreed with one's best friends in a discusion?

not to mention a clear details map is not equavalent to the make complex writing such as:

A man, A pen, a man and a pen, a pen and a man. a man has a pen. a pen belongs to a man, a man graps a pen. A pen graped by a man........ never ending sentences but only about a man and a pen.

[kj]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Understanding how it works is okay, going into a small novel about it is a waste of time IMHO.

<snip>
I am a visual learner, and learn best through experience.

If everyone shared the same learning style, and if everyone were at the same place in their learning and development all at the same time, a single preferred solution might suffice.

If we could do a "birds- of-a-feather" study, I think we would likely find that people tend to gravitate to styles and substyles which not only appeal to them technically, but also toward environments better suited to their style of learning. Similar observations might apply to how we respectively "talk" and "write" about our subjects of inquiry and examination.

There is a lot of human element in all of this - probably a whole lot more than most of us perfectionist-techno-geeks are inclined to admit.

Eh I am just ranting about stuff, so I hope no one takes any offense to this.

Not at all. As Hendrik and others have alluded, it isn't about being "right" or "wrong." It's about the process of learning. Technical aspects of a martial art are just the beginning. Good show.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

Thanks to everyone who listened to my ranting. Having the technology written out across many pages of an essay is good to have. IMHO, its better to have real world practical experience with that technology rather than just study the theroy of it.

Good luck to everyone in their training however.