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Thread: Be Responsible!!!

  1. #1
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    Be Responsible!!!

    From the Toronto Star Wed Mar 3 2004

    Coroner probes teenager's martial arts death
    Markham youth dies after friends practise karate on him

    `How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?'


    MELISSA LEONG
    STAFF REPORTER

    The coroner's office says it will investigate the death of an 18-year-old Markham student who died after roughhousing with his friends.

    Wallace Lee was at a friend's house on Feb. 20 when he put on a padded vest, his mother Connie Lee said. Three of his friends took turns punching him and practising tae kwon do and karate moves on him; one of the youths was a black belt in karate.

    Soon after, Lee, a Grade 12 Milliken Mills High School student, fainted and died at the hospital.

    William Lucas, regional supervising coroner for Peel, York and Durham regions, said yesterday Lee died after a blood vessel near his heart leaked; blood accumulated inside the pericardial sac around the heart and stopped it from beating.

    "Any kind of blunt-force trauma could cause that," he said.

    York Region police investigated and consulted with a senior crown attorney, and determined no charges would be laid, Inspector Mark Tats said.

    Lucas said it could take several weeks, even months before the coroner's office decides whether or not to call an inquest into Lee's death.

    "We need to look into the organizations that control or set standards for those martial arts to see if they have any thoughts on how the death of this young boy could have been prevented....

    "Is there something to do with the way martial arts is taught or the way the equipment was used or was this horseplay one of a kind?

    "We've got to look at stuff like the padding.

    "Was it adequate to provide the level of protection that was (needed)?"

    Lee's family is angry and looking for answers.

    "How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?" asked Connie Lee, a 53-year-old machine operator.

    The police told her that Lee's friends are good students in school and didn't mean to harm him, she said.

    But she's dissatisfied with the police investigation, and said the family is seeking legal advice.

    Lee's friend picked him up Feb. 20 in the evening and they went to anotherfriend's house to play video games.

    Lee didn't know martial arts, his mother said.

    While he and some others practised martial arts, other boys played video games, she said.

    She said after a while, as the other youths were practising their moves on him, Lee told his friends he didn't feel good and that he wanted to sit down. He passed out.

    "On the way to the ambulance, he woke up, but then he passed away."

    Two of the young men involved declined to comment to the Star.

    Tony La Selva, director of the Northern Karate School in Richmond Hill, called Lee's death a warning to parents and young children.

    "If people are doing this, you need to have a sensei (teacher) watching," he said.

    "If they're going to be fighting with each other ... they need to go to the dojo (martial arts school)."

    About 300 people attended Lee's funeral last weekend, many of them fellow students.

    "He was popular because he was a helpful, kind, giving young man," said Laurel Dodham, a guidance counsellor at Milliken Mills High School.

    "He was an extraordinarily hard worker and he tutored other kids."

    Students collected money for flowers around the school and wrote messages on cards and two bulletin boards. Teachers put together a slideshow about Lee for his funeral, said vice-principal David McAdam.

    "He was really athletic, gentle. He wouldn't complain or argue with you," Lee's 19-year-old brother Eric remembered.

    Connie Lee said her son wanted to go into civil engineering.

    Lee said she shared a room with Wallace, who had three brothers. "Now I can't sleep. Me and my husband sleep for an hour and wake up crying," she said.

    "It's not fair.... Our son was so good."
    link to this story -
    Toronto Star Newspaper story
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  2. #2
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    Sounds to me like theres no fault but genetics.

    Its sad that the family feel a need to find someone to blame before they can move on with their lives.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  3. #3
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    really? genetics?

    i am of the opinion that the martial arts students in the group should have known better and probably were blasting the guy because he had some padding on.

    Don't know about you and you're training, but this kind of stuff without the supervision of an experienced practitioner or teacher is forbidden in most schools for this very reason.

    While we as human beings are resilient by nature, we are far from indestructible. This example serves as empirical evidence of what NOT to do.

    And it raises the point of standards in both equipment and training. It also raises the question regarding the irresponsibility of some who think that it's ok to full on release force on somebody for amusement.

    If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?
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  4. #4
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    So who would you blame, Kung Lek? You gonna send these kids to jail for manslaughter? Or maybe sue their instructor for teaching them these moves in the first place?

    Responsibility is a two-way street. He allowed trained people to hit him, so he willingly took a risk and participated in his own death.

    Responsibility is one thing. Accountability is another.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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  5. #5
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    Something I found in the net this morning:

    Parents can only give good advice or put them on the right paths, but the final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands. - Anne Frank
    He was 18. Old enough to make his own decisions. No amount of padding is going to replace common sense.
    There is a great streak of violence in every human being. If it is not channeled and understood, it will break out in war or in madness. ~Sam Peckinpah

  6. #6
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    mk-

    it's not about blame, it's about the subject line.

    it's about standards and about responsibility for ones actions.
    both the students who struck the blows and the person who recieved them are responsible for their folly.

    This is as I have stated What NOT to do.

    Be responsible with what you have been taught. If you are a teacher, consider this example when you train people and put more effort into explaining to your students WHY they shouldn't be doing these things without proper supervision and without proper regard.

    What is done is done and this serves as an example of what we as martial artists should be doing as we move forward in both learning and instruction.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #7
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    my guess is this would probably be related to some inherent genetic weakness in this person. People get hit all the time in the martial arts and although it happens sometimes, it's still few and far between.
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  8. #8
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    It was an accident, plain and simple. The kid put on the pads, and let them beat him, but he was a legal adult and able to make his own decisions now by law. He could have told them to stop, but he did not know he could die so easily. People get punched in the chest all the time and don't drop dead. Look at boxing or NHB, they get punched and have almost no padding (and in some cases NO padding at all) yet they do not die from heart failure. His body couldn't handle it, but he made the decision to get punched and that cost him his life.
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  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Kung Lek
    really? genetics?

    i am of the opinion that the martial arts students in the group should have known better and probably were blasting the guy because he had some padding on.

    Don't know about you and you're training, but this kind of stuff without the supervision of an experienced practitioner or teacher is forbidden in most schools for this very reason.

    While we as human beings are resilient by nature, we are far from indestructible. This example serves as empirical evidence of what NOT to do.

    And it raises the point of standards in both equipment and training. It also raises the question regarding the irresponsibility of some who think that it's ok to full on release force on somebody for amusement.

    If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?

    It looks from what was posted that martial arts had no direct responsiability for this death other than being the shock that exposed a weakness.

    This guy could have died falling off his mountain bike or being tackled in football just the same.

    If you are suggesting that we all train as if every one we pair with has a congenital heart defect then you are very wrong.

    It states that when he didn't feel good he asked them to stop and they stopped. No one was beating him up, no one was miss using martial arts.

    As for:
    Don't know about you and you're training
    Well I would have died in both my private life and in my training life many times over if I was as fragile as you suggest people are.

    As for:

    If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?
    I have lost both friends and family in ways that could concivably been forseen/prevented with out finding a need to pin blame on anyone, just understanding that life is full of unknows.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  10. #10
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    Be responsiable.

    Your subject line, kung lek.

    Is it responsiable to let your students belive that with just one miss thrown punch their parttner (and by extention attacker) could be killed?

    The reverse is also true. Do you lead your students to fear a punch to the body so much that they can not cope with the idea of one?

    To myself the above two examples are much more irresponsiable then letting "kids" find their own boundries.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  11. #11
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    ""How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?" "

    This is what I have a problem with. If a little league pitcher gets hit in the chest with a line drive and killed do they blame the baseball maker? The bat maker? The kid who hit the ball? Or the dead kid who threw the ball?

    Accidents happen, people are dieing right now and NO ONE is responsible. We live in a chaotic world. Some have a hard time accepting that.

    At the same time I don't like to say genetics, makes the poor kid look weak or lesser of a person. It was probbaly bad timing of the heart plus a good kick in the right place.

    Sad for the family and friens but no different then being hit with a baseball. You play baseball you may get hit with a ball. You play martial arts you may get kicked. Thousands of people get hit with kicks and balls and walk away ... a few don't.

    I sparred for years in Karate as a kid in the late 70s and 80s and we never wore gear. A few kids would wear shin pads at tournaments and they looked like freaks. Bloody noses, a few loose or lost teath, no one died.

  12. #12
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    like i said-

    It's not about blame guys.

    It's not about the fact the guy getting hit had no martial background and the guys who were hitting him did.

    It's about responsible actions both being taught and being used.

    Those who were striking him had martial teachings. They likely knew that they shouldn't be doing this sort of thing.

    The guy getting hit was being a dummy for them and yes it was his choice.

    Don't misconstrue what I am saying. See it for what it is. This happens and it shouldn't have happened. Particularly the "black belt" of the group should've known better.

    In my opinion, his training was faulty if he thought that this session was "ok".

    But again, what's done is done. If you are a student, be aware that correct training is not done at a video game party with the bravado and zeal of a limited experience.

    This thinking is in error. It can be laid out in such a way in any class for martial artists that this is clearly understood. This example shows that none of these kids knew what they were doing and the one kid died because of that fundamental lack of knowledge and education concerning this type of practice.

    Clearly, the guy who died, who had no martial training was trusting his friends to be responsible. Clearly they were not.

    A mere single tap is unlikely to kill, sustained heavy blows can kill anyone and this has to be respected. IN this example, that fact was NOT respected and ergo I see a fault in their training and in their actions.

    Moving forward, this needs to be recognized. Hammering away at each other is idiocy and nothing is learned from it other than "ouch, that hurts", "well then don't do that".

    So, be careful and be responsible with the knowledge you have and the training path you are on. Never work with someone who does not have any exeprience whatsoever in this manner. It's simple.

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  13. #13
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    I'm not sure I see anything irresponsible going on here. his freinds new martial arts, they were fooling around at home - who hasn't, and they hit him in a weak spot. It happens, sucks but that's life.
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  14. #14
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    actually it just sounds like the weakness that is growing in our societies today. We don't want to take responsibility anymore, we want to blame something or someone on the accidents that sometimes just happen.
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  15. #15
    Quote
    " Any kind of blunt force trauma could have caused that"

    I take this to mean he could have walked into a lamppost and still have hurt himself.
    It was an accident .Sad but still an accident.As the coroner said Any blow could have caused this .Unfortunatley it was a hit from one of his friends and who can say ,hand on heart that they have NEVER arsed around with their friends and done something similar.
    You never intend to cause them harm and i bet that his friends felt exactly the same way.

    I can't even begin to imagine what the parents are feeling right now but would pinning the blame on someone will help make them feel better? but where does the responsibilty stop?

    With the kids that where there? Would sending an 18 yr old to jail make them feel better?
    What about his sensi? or even the grandmasters of the system for teaching him?
    Or what about the parents for allowing their son to hang around with these kids in the first place?
    I know im becoming cynical and jaded because rightly or wrongly when i read
    " someone must be to blame" i automatically thought
    "someone must be liable to be sued"
    Butthats just a sad indication of the way i think nowadays
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