any martial artist girls in southern california want to hang out?

[freehand]

Aargh. A perversion of the teachings. It cannot be learned without hands-on practice. And it was emphasized to us over and again that there *are no guarantees. "You're just improving your odds," my teacher would say.

That poor guy got ripped off. Hope he never met a mugger. Heh.

Thanx for the info on the characters. Between various romanizations, different dialects, and the Chinese propensity for ****nyms, one needs to be able to *read Chinese to sort it out.

[Bwahahaha! I wrote h+o+m+o+nym, and some fool censorship program bleeped me out.]

Perhaps there is no relationship at all between San Soo and CLF, except that which comes from being neighbors.

[Eddie]

Well I read on the CLF forum at clfma.com that Jimmy Woo is related to Chan siu Dik (if memory serves me well) who is a Chan family descendant.

San Sooo pretty much means any type of fighting, so maybe that’s just what it is, kind of like mixed ‘ chinese’ martial arts. In my country the buzz word these days is “ Combat” (Combat Karate, Combat Tang Soo Do, Combat Ninjitsu and Close Quarter Combat something) so maybe we should call that Combat Choy Lay Fut to keep up with modern trends (Sounds pretty cool doesnt it).

I saw pictures of Jimmy Woo already in his old age, and he looked like one tough guy. His body also looked very athletic and well kept, even in his old age.

[brothernumber9]

from what I gather reading different threads:
choy lee hot fut = cai li fo = choy lay fut just different dialects.
san soo = san shou just different dialects
but Its more or less just conjecture (from me anyway).

[freehand]

Eddie: "Well I read on the CLF forum at clfma.com that Jimmy Woo is related to Chan siu Dik (if memory serves me well) who is a Chan family descendant."

I had never heard of Chan in this regard until I read it on these threads a few days ago. Jimmy's real name was Chin Diu Dek. Are people confused because of the similarities? Are these different romanizations of the same name/character? Same name in different dialects ? I dunno. Seems like a bit of a coincidence otherwise.

Eddie: "San Sooo pretty much means any type of fighting, so maybe that’s just what it is, kind of like mixed ‘ chinese’ martial arts. In my country the buzz word these days is “ Combat” (Combat Karate, Combat Tang Soo Do, Combat Ninjitsu and Close Quarter Combat something) so maybe we should call that Combat Choy Lay Fut to keep up with modern trends (Sounds pretty cool doesnt it)."

Kind of. (They are the same characters as the sport San Shou; but are otherwise not related.) The characters mean literally "unrestrained hand". "Freestyle" (not exactly sparring) is our main training method, and so the name. The original name was Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung Gar, or at least that's how it was spelled for me. This page illustrates why there is so much confusion among our people:
http://www.geocities.com/san_soowushu/Drama2.html

When he first opened his school to non-Chinese, he called it "Karate Kung Fu", because no non-Chinese American knew what "kung fu" was.

Eddie: "I saw pictures of Jimmy Woo already in his old age, and he looked like one tough guy. His body also looked very athletic and well kept, even in his old age."

That he was.

[Eddie]

Freehand,
Thanks for the link you posted. It actually answers all the questions.

Look at this lineage, it means your style is simply choy lay fut (or atleast so I understand):

Choy Fok--Li San--Chan Wu
|
Chan Heung (Leung)
|
Chan Koon and Chan On
|
Chan Su Hung
|
Chan Siu Duk and Chan Sai Mo
|
James Benckert

San Shou just means free hands, which can mean anything. Taiji has san shou sets which I believe refers to hand sparring sets or something.

I was wondering, does your Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung style have any forms, or is it just techniques and sparring?

Regards
Ed

Btw – the spelling on this site, writes the hung ga different to that on another tsoi li ho fo hung site.

[JAZA]

Chan= Chin in Toishanese I think.

[freehand]

Eddie: Yea, Jimmy Woo liked to fight, and I don't know how much else was in the system that he may have learned but wasn't especially interested in. Perhaps nothing. Learning healing is a good thing (I was a nurse and medic in the army), but it's not clear to me how it helps a person in a fight. It might make the person a well-rounded person... so do my daughter's piano lessons, but I don't know if they contribute to her knife skills.

It has forms. We were told that the 26-move forms we were taught were short sections of longer forms.There was a formula for putting them together into one big honkin' form, but we were only taught the shorter ones. One per month, but we only had to know one we liked plus the current one; they were not progressive. Unlike some forms I've learned elsewhere, these included no chin na or throws, only strikes and kicks. Nor were they an "encyclopedia" of techniques as they were in some arts. They were practiced at medium speed usually, altho they could be sped up or slowed as the student wanted. Their purposes included, but were not necessarily limited to, learning balance, rhythm, posture, breathing, and the devlopment of strength thru dynamic tension. They were an important and underappreciated element of our training (if Jimmy didn't think they helped our fighting, I don't think he would have bothered), but 90% of our practice was the san soo, the freestyle.

Freestyle was not sparring, altho it had no predetermined moves (unless the student was trying to work out how to do a new technique). One student would attack, and the defending student would respond with spontaneous techniques that he had been taught in class. he might do a particular block w/ simultaneous counterstrike, then follow up with any number of strike combinations, chin na, throws, etc. Then he would attack, and the other defend.

So unlike sparring, where two students compete, even if it is low key and friendly, the outcome is predetermined - just not which techniques. This allows flow, and practice of techniques like eye strikes, knee kicks, throat punches, etc. The attacker responds as tho he had really been hit, even tho the strikes are pulled (the chin na is really applied). You kick me in the groin on the street, I *will double over, allowing you to wrap around my head for a hip throw, of knee me in the nose. You can't get that response from someone you're sparring with. This is similar to randori in aikido, only meaner

For instance, I throw a right punch. You step outside the strike with your left foot and parry with a right palm, simultaneously kicking (but pulling the kick) my groin with a snap roundhouse. I double over, you reach over with your left hand over my head, grab my chin, then rotate left into a left horse. My chin twists left, my body follows, and I land on the ground on my side facing away from you, you kick my kidney.

[Brithlor]

There seem to be so many inconsistances about San Soo history... that I don't think that -- unless some important part of its history is discovered -- that where it came from, who invented it or anything else can be truely known...

I've heard a lot of claims about the martial art's age... some say 3 thousand, others claim as much as 5 thousand. Where is this number coming from?

The books Jimmy Woo's family has are really the only thing they could show as proof of its age and how unchanged the techinques are from the martial art's invetion. You would think that revealing these books material would really bolster San Soo's community... But as far as I know no one outside of the Jummy Woo's family and the supposed monks who created those books have ever seen their contents.

Surely there would be more proof of a 4 thousand year old martial art than two books that no one has ever seen?

I know no more about who Jimmy Woo's uncle was (the person he apparently learned "San Soo" from) besides what I have heard from the San Soo community and elsewhere... so I can't really say and more than apparently ther person Jimmy Woo claimed was his teacher of San Soo is actually a CLF person, and what he taught was his own version of it.

Whenever I'm discussing this topic I might come across as a little too hard on San Soo... but that would only be from all the garbage my former San Soo teacher claimed... Such as San Soo being the basis for 90% of the arts in China, and the "obvious" superiority San Soo has over all the other martial arts, since it is not flowery and allows for low level belts to destroy any other martial artist... even without conditioning or sparring... but I don't want to ramble on too long about that.

[Brithlor]

The problems I have with San Soo is not the about the history... but the way it is trained.

It seems like most San Soo people think that "If I block and counter " at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them

I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that.

It just doesn't seem like many San Soo people can actually use it in a situation where someone is resisting. You may say "well, how is he going to resist if I gouge his eyes, kick him in the groin and stomp his liver?" well... you might not even land a strike.

I think the freestyle fighting in san soo may be an important part of the training... since it teaches accurate strikes, flowing from one technique to the other, etc, but I just don't see how anyone could really defend themselves if they never practice anything more than that.

There is a place for controlled sparring too. One thing San Soo seems to really lack is any kind of fighting strategy... atleast light and controlled sparring... however artificial it may be (since the opponent won't react to each strike) teaches people to develop strategies to work off not just your partners offensive attacks... but how they defend aswell.

Anyway, I don't mean to take this off topic, but originally I wanted to just respond to someone's inquiry about the origin of San Soo... and now I just want to voice a different side of this arguement.

[freehand]

Brithor: "It seems like most San Soo people think that 'If I block and counter ' at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them"
They generally will, if you make the block and counter...

The attacks are almost always long range attacks, haymakers and lunge punches and such. My jujitsu teacher calls them "the bulls". Once a good stun is applied, the followup techniques work just fine. I am studying kali/jeet kun do now to deal with the bridging. Not everyone will walk up and swing with a right roundhouse punch. I'm trying to learn to deal with the guy moving in quickly but cautiously, holding his folder knife in his dominant hand. Or the artist trained in a different combat style. I've been impressed by some of the Russian Systema people I've seen.

That said, the San Soo people I know who have been in fights have aquitted themselves well against experienced streetfighters, sometimes when badly outnumbered. I know of none personally who have fought any CLF students, or Chen Taiji teachers, or Shaolin monks. They have fared well against several karate stylists.

Brithor: "I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that."
I have in my kali and jujitsu classes. Does that count?

Brithor: "It just doesn't seem like many San Soo people can actually use it in a situation where someone is resisting. "

San Soo does just fine against those whose primary training focus has been sport competition. But there are other combat arts out there, aren't there?

Brithor: "I think the freestyle fighting in san soo may be an important part of the training... since it teaches accurate strikes, flowing from one technique to the other, etc, but I just don't see how anyone could really defend themselves if they never practice anything more than that."

I say the same for those who practice only sparring. <sigh.> When I get all the pieces to the puzzle of hand combat I'll let you know

I have seen *some countering of techniques in San Soo. You might say that nearly all of the training involves a counter, but it was usually countering strikes, kicks, or simple grabs. Most of my chin na countering has been from my jujitsu teacher, and I've learned a lot of drills and patterns in kali which allow my arms to flow out of grabs, traps, etc, without depending on the attacker's responses to my pain-inflicting strikes.

If I throw a roundhouse snap kick to your groin, and miss by three inches and hit your upper thigh, you won't even notice,

Brithor: "There is a place for controlled sparring too. One thing San Soo seems to really lack is any kind of fighting strategy... "

We cover tactics such as the basic keep one between you and the others, etc. I have heard of tournament people discussing tactics like "feel him out; see what kind of fighter he is". Well, every fight I've seen or heard of was over pretty fast. But that doesn't mean that my *five years (rookie stage only) covered all the bases. As far as I know, the upper belts mostly got more of the same.

My jujitsu teacher also teaches Chen Taiji; I know that reeling silk is real, and I am determined to learn it. I did little work in bridging in San Soo; kali is helping to fill that important um, gap.

As "nice" as aikido is, I have learned from it. Perhaps some of this I would have learned in San Soo if I had been able to stay, but I had not seen it being taught, nor heard of it there.

Brithor: "at least light and controlled sparring... however artificial it may be (since the opponent won't react to each strike) teaches people to develop strategies to work off not just your partners offensive attacks... but how they defend as well."

I am looking forward to holodecks; then we will be able to train without holding back. Until then, we will have to satisfy ourselves with simulating various aspects of combat thru different sorts of training.

Brithor: "Anyway, I don't mean to take this off topic, but originally I wanted to just respond to someone's inquiry about the origin of San Soo..."

Well, at least we got *that settled.

Bwahahahahaha!

[Eddie]

CLF ‘s strategy is that there are no definite blocks in the style, there are only counter attacks. A simple gwa choy becomes an effective block, obviously hoping to do some ‘damage’ while striking and so forth. (Actually, this concept of ‘no blocks only counter attacks’ is not limited to arts such as CLF only, as I found it in Northern Shaolin too.)

Maybe its just my poor English and comprehension, but I found it difficult to understand the last two post between freehand and brithlor and what they actually wanted to say.

There is defiantly a place for sparring as well as forms training in any kung fu style. Forms are about basic skills, and body dynamics which could give you an important ‘advantage’ in a fight, but fighting training (against resisting opponent as the JKD people say) is just an important.

I find it difficult to understand how they transmitted a 4 thousand year old style without the use of some kind of form method.

Is kung fu san soo then not just an older version of JKD?

[freehand]

Eddie: "Is kung fu san soo then not just an older version of JKD? "

Nope. Perhaps a variant of Choy Lee Fut, however.

My art of San Soo is not 4 thousand years old; even the oral history I was given only claims 800 years. Monastic kung fu of some sort goes back maybe 2300 years.

The Apache Indians in North America have a martial art which they pass on to their young folk. The Hawaiins have what could pass for Pig Kung Fu - a martial art inspired by the meanest animal in the Islands outside of humans. Pre-gunpowder Europe had martial arts schools, teaching staff, hands, and sword. I suspect that martial arts go back at least to the begining of agriculture, and cities, and real warfare - 10,000 years. It may go back to the begining of modern humans, 100,000 years or more. When the first paleolithic warrior swung several sticks to see which one felt best; when he showed his son how to make a fist and where to punch, kung fu was born. There was kung fu before there was a China in any meaningful sense.

Yeah, San Soo has forms. We trained in freestyle (90%) and forms (10%).

[Brithlor]

"Brithor: "I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that."
I have in my kali and jujitsu classes. Does that count?"

Are you saying you've "fought" Jujitsu and Kali people... Or that Jujitsu and Kali teach you how to counter defensive moves? *EDIT* If you are learning those other martial arts to fill in any kind of gap in your San Soo training then you aren't really the "San Soo" people I'm reffering to. I'm talking about the ones who have the opinion that no other art is worth learning and that to learn a second martial art is just to "water down" San Soo.

Obviously I'm not implying that San Soo people can't fight what so ever... It comes natural to some people. It just seems like most of them have a difficult time usesing many of the things they practice all the time... such as throws and leverages against a resisting opponent... Not to mention being able to succeed in a fight against someone who also knows how to block.


"Brithor: "It seems like most San Soo people think that 'If I block and counter ' at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them"
They generally will, if you make the block and counter..."

Well, my point is that your counter won't always land.... the few times I've sparred with San Soo people I can almost always block their counter attacks by just obstructing the path with my arms or legs at an unprotected area...

Also, even if the "stun" is landed it may not always have the desired effect. A scratch to the eyes (something I saw a lot as the usual stun in my school) may not stop the opponents' follow up attacks.

Also, anyone who is REALLY fighting you will almost always keep their groin in a hard to hit area. If you can catch someone off-guard using the "element of surprise", say if you walk up to a stranger and knee him in the groin it may work... But if someone is ready to fight you, when the element of surprise is gone that target becomes much more difficult to hit, and all you are really left with are the 'normal' attacks...

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that sparring is the only way to go... It just one important training element out of many, but it just seems like San Soo lacks something in the way of training versus a resisting opponent. If the circumstances are perfect in your training then maybe you can get all the same benefits of adding some kind of sparring, but I doubt it.

[Brithlor]

"My art of San Soo is not 4 thousand years old; even the oral history I was given only claims 800 years. Monastic kung fu of some sort goes back maybe 2300 years."

BTW, If anyone was confused *I* was never trying to say San Soo is 4 thousand years old. I had just heard that countless times from San Soo people... The claim that it is 800 years old is much more believable. Did Jimmy Woo himself ever say it was more than 800 years old, or is that something some of his students or grandstudents to try and add something to their martial art?

[freehand]

Brithor: "Are you saying you've "fought" Jujitsu and Kali people... Or that Jujitsu and Kali teach you how to counter defensive moves? "

I currently study under a kali teacher who has some Jeet Kun Do; I find his bridging techniques an excellent complement to San Soo. I also study under a jujitsu and Chen Taiji teacher. I am expanding my knowledge of chin na and pressure points under his tutelage, and we frequently work on countering chin na with chin na. He also uses friendly sparring as a training tool. I do not understand his Taiji yet, but I know something real is happening there, and I am working on push hands and other taiji play. I sometimes work out with another San Soo student who lives in the area.

Me:"if you make the block and counter..." Sorry for the ambiguity. I meant "make" as in "make the goal" in soccer/football... to succeed, not merely attempt. I am painfully aware that despite my intention, I may not make the block/counter. I want to add that "block and counter" never means block the punch, then follow with a strike. It was usually a simultaneous block-strike; often the block *was a strike; or the counter was a strike, with the block tossed in as "insurance".

Brithor: "Well, my point is that your counter won't always land.... the few times I've sparred with San Soo people I can almost always block their counter attacks by just obstructing the path with my arms or legs at an unprotected area..."

Something which I hope my kali will allow me to deal with.

Brithor: "Also, even if the "stun" is landed it may not always have the desired effect. A scratch to the eyes (something I saw a lot as the usual stun in my school) may not stop the opponents' follow up attacks."

This was told to us over and again, but if one's partners are always cooperative, it may not sink in at the bone and tendon level. Some of the bouncers say that they've seen people take a full-on kick to the groin, double over, straighten up, then come right back into the fight. And if I throw a finger jab at your eyes and thump your forehead, you won't notice.

A jab to the eyes was not, of course, the end of the fight, but merely the buying of a fraction of a second to follow up with a sequence of blows. How long would I have to close my eyes for *you to hit me a couple of times?

Brithor: "Also, anyone who is REALLY fighting you will almost always keep their groin in a hard to hit area."

Anyone who simply rushes in, swinging wide, will leave something open. My jujitsu teacher calls the people who charge in "The Bulls". He has a similar criticism against aikido (we trained under the same sensei). While aikido does real stuff, being derived from kenjitsu work it also deals almost exclusively with long range, long fist attacks - at least in the dojos I've trained in.

When they are not bulls, it is trickier, yes?

Brithor: "Anyway, I'm not trying to say that sparring is the only way to go..."

Understood.

Brithor: "If the circumstances are perfect in your training then maybe you can get all the same benefits of adding some kind of sparring, but I doubt it."

I suspect no art has all of the pieces of the combat puzzle.