Wing Chun is a slow process?

[CFT]

OK slightly misleading title ....

For all the mythology about WC being a scientific system able to produce fighters quickly, I am of the opinion that it is as elusive an art as say Tai Chi is, and requires a lot of understanding on the part of the practitioner. For example, we don't simply churn out fighters like a boxing gym does.

There is no training by numbers. You can't just "do these motions" and get results. Perhaps those with boxing experience can correct me .... any half decent gym is able to produce someone who can fight, in a short time. Not to a professional level perhaps, but they won't say: "yeah well I've still got to work on my body structure and rooting". It just seems to me that Wing Chun is not as scientific/mechanical a training methodology as "advertised".

The key WC theories are well thought out, e.g. defending/attacking the centre-line, economy of motion, conservation of energy, not meeting force head on, etc. They seem to be well reasoned using a scientific thought process, but are also espoused by other traditional Chinese and non-Chinese martial arts.

WC only has 3 empty hand forms, a wooden dummy training form and 2 weapons forms. This means that all the material can be taught in a relatively short time span, but this does not equate to producing effective fighters in a short timeframe.

Sorry if this post seems a bit disjointed. Before anyone starts flaming, I do practice Wing Chun but it is more "personal" than I first thought, less "by the numbers". By "personal" I mean personal understanding, enlightenment, etc.

[TjD]

i think the problem lies in the fact that you need to practice hard and figure things out.

some people like to do #1, some people like to do #2. finding someone who'll do both #1 and #2 is a rarity.

the motions don't work right just "out of the box." the correct feeling and timing to apply them properly comes with time and practice, and a lot of fine tuning. mabye it's because we strive for something more than "ug me hit you harder!" (although that never hurts).

**edit**
mabye sometimes it does

[CFT]

Originally posted by TjD
i think the problem lies in the fact that you need to practice hard and figure things out.

I don't have a problem accepting this universal truth.

Perhaps I should have included the thesis that: "Wing Chun was designed to be a simple & efficient style so that anti-Manchu activists could train large number of effective fighters against the Qing/Manchu government".

Not my theory, but commonly posited ones on this forum and elsewhere. In my opinion, and I definitely could be wrong here, this would only be possible with a "by the numbers" system of training and combat techniques. The activists couldn't possibly waited years for people to develop their root, body structure, etc.

That is, by training in a certain way you can consistently get a person to punch/kick with power, at the right time, in the right place, etc.

I was probably very naive to expect that by "doing A" I would automatically be able to "achieve B". But don't you think that there are things in Wing Chun that no amount of training can help you achieve if you just don't "get it"?

An example would be the basic Wing Chun sun-character punch. A beginner will just throw the punch out, not much power there. Maybe with more training they will drive with the elbow, they'll be relaxed and they will improve their body structure, etc.

Would any of the boxing punches have so many dependencies, or do they simply achieve the power through hard training?

[TjD]

i think another part of the problem lies in whose drawn to which art.

face it, at least in america a lot of us do kung fu cuz we're nerds


i do think WC can be learned really quickly. 2-3 years of long hard daily training with competant students and i think you could have a serious force for some political upheaval. we just don't train that hard or have that much time to put into it.

[Ernie]

wing chun takes along time ?

depends on what your trying to get out of it . and how the system your learning is orginized

yip man taught it very dis orginized this in turn spread to the students and there students , so it took a long time to figure what goes where .

since the system has been out in the open for a long time now people have started to orginize it and make it clear .

so it depends on the teacher you run into .

second if you want to learn how to fight with it , it doesn't take very long if you get out and test it . sure you will get dropped along the way but the truth will come quickly as you adapt.

if you have at least 4 years you should be able to handle yourself with out thinking . you should have good power .timing .speed.balance and adaptability .
sensitivity will come with experience and that often takes a life of it's own .

now if you want to be a wing chun [ artist ] and do perfect forms and become super chi sau guy , well that will take along time since the level of adaptability and experience is not as openended as one who's primary goal is just the combative application

as for boxers , well it's not as quick as you may like to think , i have spent some time training in that fashion and people that are really good spend many long hours refining under heavy pressure .
if you put wing chun under the same pressure cooker you would see similar results . but most wont take it there

[Gangsterfist]

I think wing chun is very straight forward and destructive martial art. Most of its moves are straight to the point hurting or killing your opponet. You can train someone to be "street worthy" in a few months of consistant training. This all depends on how your sifu trains you. Last night in class each of us had to fight every person in class in a fast, hard, agreesive sparring match for 1 min each and then go right to the next person. No resting, just fight for 10 to 12 minutes straight (there were about 12 people in class last night). It was very tiring towards the end and I got hit pretty hard a few times in the face. Now, if you train for real fight situations and you have a good coach or sifu then you will accelerate in your training faster.

Earlier it was stated:

I am of the opinion that it is as elusive an art as say Tai Chi is, and requires a lot of understanding on the part of the practitioner.

Since I am a practioner of both Yang Taiji, and Yip Man wing chun systems I may put in my view with this statement. Some of the maxims or concepts of WC may be elusive or have many different meanings that can be applied, but to compare them along those lines I would disagree with you. For one taiji is a very scientific system thats principles are probably more applicable than wing chuns in any given situation. This is because taiji is not really worried about punching and kicking you, its more about controlling the yin and yang energies.

So it basically all depends on how you are trained. I train in a practical sense. I learn the systems, all the forms, do bunch of drills, and then do lots of heavy sparring. I try techniques out while sparring and change them to fit my body and ablities as I go. One example would be a class mate of mine that is pretty much immune to pressure points. He just doesn't feel the pain a normal person does. Whenever we would go into a clench or chin na situation I could not go for any kind of pressure point type grab, because it didnt really work. That doesn't mean I can never use those techniques again, it just means that I realize that it wasn't working and had to change it up. That is a big part of fighting, realizing when certain techniques aren't working and changing to something that does. You can change up your attack in a split second. You have someone in a choke hold and they are really pulling against your body to get loose, let them go and as you let them go elbow them in the head. Things like that can make you a pretty "street worthy" fighter. A lot of those changing attack methods will come from chi sao drills. Just remember to transfer your chi sao from friendly game with class mate to combat - attack your opponet.

A good sifu will realize what different training methods will benefit you the most. For example some of my kung fu brothers/sisters learned the dummy and long pole before biu jee, some learned biu jee before the dummy or long pole. Everyone progresses differently and a good coach or sifu should be able to tell what training will benefit you the most next.

[reneritchie]

You should be able to get basic fighting skill (if that's what your after rather than social, exercise, or something else) fairly quickly, but you have to be training under a sifu who specializes in that aspect (not everyone can or cares to).

WCK is like anything else, though. There are few Olympic level people in any endeavor. Each individual will vary in how far they can get, and how fast they can get there, providing they have the feed to do so.

[anerlich]

On the one hand we have:

"Wing Chun is a method designed to produce competent fighters in a short space of time"

A piece of marketingese designed to get students through the door.

OTOH we have:

"WC takes decades to master. You must follw the sequence set by the Sifu and not try to do too much too soon"

To keep students at the kwoon for as long as possible.

Here the cognitive dissonance sets in. Call me a cynic if you wish.

It comes down to training method. Remember also that somewhere around 99.99% of trainees are hobbyists, not revolutionaries trying to topple an entrenched government.

Ernie is correct. Learning to box well is not easy.

at least in america a lot of us do kung fu cuz we're nerds

I wouldn't say that about anyone who crosstrains in BJJ, MT or boxing. All of those require daling with pain, exhaustion, and continually confronting one's weaknesses and inadequacies. WC and taiji should too, but do they in all cases? Too easy to get caught up in the mystical and esoteric aspects and forget the original purposes.

[AndrewS]

I've gotten smoked by guys in my line with 4 years experience and no prior athletic background when I had twice their time in and 70lbs of bodyweight on them.

Some of that's the person; some of that's their teacher (how do you spell pain? J-A-N-N-I-S!).

Those guys (Spiros and Marti) can hang with national class wrestlers and decent amateur boxers and kickboxers, no doubt. They became rapidly effective as fighters, and could easily walk into any entry-level MMA event and do well, IMO. They also train 4-8 hrs a day in a very rigorous environment where they are taken to spar with good wrestlers, boxers, and thai boxers regularly.

They do a lot of right things in their training- the stuff that builds good fighters in any discipline- operating live and under pressure frequently, and constantly undergoing technical refinement.

The reason most Wing Chun people suck as fighters isn't because of the art; it's 'cos they don't train like fighters.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Super Chi Sao Guy With Perfect Forms"... is, unfortunately, rarely the guy that can consistently kick butt in the street if he had to. (We've all seen a few exceptions - but generally this is the rule).

Why ? Waaaaay too much spent on chi sao, forms, wooden dummy set, weapons set, etc.

Not enough time left to do the multitude of other things that need to be worked (including crosstraining - in today's world especially)...with a live partner.

What things ? Longer-range footwork/Sparring/Grappling/
Working from the clinch/Conditioning/Stretching/Cardio, etc.

Ernie's right on another point as well - GM Yip Man was famous for training and teaching his students in a hap-hazard fashion - for whatever reason - which lead to some bad habits in future generations.

Bottom line? If your instructor's primary goal is to teach you how to fight...it shouldn't take more than 4-5 years to see some very significant results.

And how is that to be judged ? Can you fight (and really hold your own) against a good fighter OUTSIDE OF WING CHUN at the end of that period of time? If yes...cool.

But if you can't...then who really gives a rat's behind if you're "Super Chi Sao Guy" ?

[yylee]

So what exactly are "Super Chi Sao" and "Perfect Forms", a big "S" on the chest and a big piece of red table cloth hanging from the shoulders like silk in the wind?

[SevenStar]

I think the difference here is in the training methods. One one hand you have muay thai, grappling, etc. They are very focused arts. bjj has no weapons, no real striking, no long forms, etc. It's just grappling. You learn a new technique, then drill it, then spar with it. Beginners will roll as early as their first day of training. Consequently, they are testing themselves (to some extent) from the very beginning. Also, 100% fo their training time is geared towards grappling - they advance more quickly.

The same can be said about muay thai. bagwork, pad drills, etc. are all directly apply to the sparring that they will be using, and IME, they start sparring at an earlier stage than TMA, which makes a big difference.

One more thing to consider may be the types of people certain arts attract. As was pointed out earlier, people drawn to kung fu are "nerds". Of course, not everyone of them is a nerd, but how many of them are expecting vigorous training, several hours spent training in and out of the school, body aches and pains, etc.? If it were a great number, then the McSchool may not be so dominant today. BJJ, MT, boxing, etc. are known as being highly competitive sports. Naturally, you expect hard training if you are going to train in one of these styles. People interested in training sport styles are willing to endure that. The ones who aren't either adapt or quit.

[IronFist]

Whoa, good thread.

[yuanfen]

Comments on Sevenstar's post:
Of course, not everyone of them is a nerd, but how many of them are expecting vigorous training, several hours spent training in and out of the school, body aches and pains, etc.? If it were a great number, then the McSchool may not be so dominant today. BJJ, MT, boxing, etc. are known as being highly competitive sports. Naturally, you expect hard training if you are going to train in one of these styles.
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Good wing chun folks who I know do train hard.

Most may not. the dominance of McSchools like McFastfood places
are not due to lack of good wing chun or good burgers...two things are involved McMarketing and quick stop cultural habits.
Gresham's law is involved too.
Top flight wing chun leaders like my sigung have had two pronged training regimens-one for those mastering the art, the other entering full contact and sporting matches (in Asia).

Sporting events and rule compliance does require additional stamina and wind compared to finishing a quick self defense encounter.

Boxers training regimens vary too BTW depending on whther they are working on some amateur 3 two minute rounds, pro 3 minute rounds... 3 round fights, 4, 6, 8 or 12. They have done away with the older 15 rounds-partly for "safety"s sake.

[SevenStar]

I'm not saying they don't train hard. Naturally, there are those that do. I think that the McSchool is based on several factors. The biggest being the human factor. Too many people care about lineages, the rep of their grandmaster, etc. and not enough about VERIFIABLE truths. for example, I dont care how good of a fighter yip man, leung ting, chang tung sheng, etc. may have been. If you aren't able to produce the same results, then what they could do means nil. Now, if you have a rep for training champions, turning out great fighters, etc. Then you are someone I am interested in training in.

It's too easy to make up a lineage, as the everyday newbie to MA won't know the difference anyway. people piggyback of of the rep of their styles ancestors, never having to prove anything themselves. This helps to propogate the McSchool.

That wasn't really what I was focusing on though, but rahter the methods of TMA compared to MMA and why one may be faster than the other.