Why Wing Chun is inferior...

[Knifefighter]

Ultimatewingchun’s comment about Wing Chun being superior to kickboxing prompted me to sit down and compare and contrast Wing Chun with kickboxing, boxing, and Muay Thai. Here’s my analysis:

Power Development:
Power development is an extremely important component of unarmed fighting. Body rotation plays a pivotal role in the development of power and can be illustrated by observing activities that require maximum power (i.e. golf drives; baseball homerun hits; baseball and football throws; discuss, javelin, and shotput throws; tennis strokes).

Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai, on the other hand, have no such constraints and make full use of body rotation in delivering their strikes. So much power is developed by these types of rotational mechanics that several of these fighters are routinely killed in the ring and in training each year.

Exposure of Vulnerable Targets:
The goal of most striking arts is to hit the most vulnerable areas of the body in order to incapacitate the opponent. Keeping these areas as unexposed as possible is an important consideration in combat.

Due to the Centerline theory, traditional Wing Chun practitioners stand in a square stance with the center of their bodies facing their opponents. This type of stance opens up the face, neck, abdomen, and groin to forward, direct blows from the opponent. Even those who have modified the traditional Wing Chun stance into a staggered stance still keep the upper body facing forward, continuing to expose the face, neck, and abdominal areas to the opponent. Since several vulnerable targets of the body’s center are facing the opponent, the Wing Chun fighter must be concerned with committing many of his resources towards protecting these targets.

In contrast to this, Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai use a staggered stance, which turns the body slightly and moves the vulnerable targets of the center of the body away from the opponent, making them harder to hit. Additionally, these fighters also tuck the head slightly and raise the lead shoulder to further protect the face and neck area.

Mobility:
A fighter who moves fast without losing his equilibrium or ability to generate power will have a significant advantage. Mobility is necessary for delivering offensive blows, as well as for complementing defensive techniques.

The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In biomechanical terms, this is known as a false step.

During the time it takes to perform the false step, the fighter is off balance and has no base from which to develop power. The transition during the false step creates an extremely vulnerable position for the Wing Chun fighter. Studies have shown that the false step also lengthens the time it takes to move forward or backward by 50 to 100%.

The boxer/kickboxer/Muay Thai practitioner stands in a staggered stance, so no false step is required. These fighters already have one foot behind the center of mass, thus allowing for immediate, non-delayed forward movement and power delivery.

Fighting Range:
A fighter who can dictate the range of the fight to his specifications will generally have an advantage over the fighter who is limited to only one range.

Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only. Because the center must continually face the opponent, the range of the Wing Chun practitioner’s weapons are relatively short. Being constricted to fighting in this range severely limits the ability of the Wing Chun fighter to work in a variety of situations and ranges.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai do not have these restrictions and have weapons available for all ranges. Boxing uses the jab for long range fighting, the cross and outside hook for medium range, and the inside hook and uppercuts for inside range. In addition to these same weapons, kickboxing/Muay Thai use side, roundhouse, or front kicks for even longer range fighting and knees and elbows for the shortest ranges. This gives these systems the flexibility needed to fight at a variety of different ranges.

Modifications for Sportive Environments:
Full-contact combative contests such as the K-1 kickboxing events and the Pride and UFC mixed martial arts competitions attract many of the world’s top combat athletes. These events allow participants to test themselves and their training against the best, as well as to make future modifications to their training depending on their successes or failures.

Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.

Boxing and Muay Thai have been able to successfully modify their arts to fit the constraints of sporting venues. While kickboxing was developed largely as a ring sport, boxing and Muay Thai were originally designed to be used with no safety equipment, such as gloves, and very few, if any, rules. Over the years, both boxing and Muay Thai have adjusted well to a variety of rule and equipment changes. Muay Thai has successfully adjusted a variety of its techniques, such as the behind the neck grip in the plumb position, to allow for the interference of protective gloves on gripping ability. A variety of boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters have also crosstrained in grappling and groundfighting and have been regularly successful at competing in MMA events.

Training Methods:
A basic tenant of effective human performance training is known as specificity of training. This means that the closer one trains to the desired activity, the better the performance results will be.

A majority of Wing Chun training methods are relatively non-specific to the actual event being trained towards (fighting). One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.

Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power.

The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.

By contrast, the training methods of boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai systems are much more specific to what occurs in real fights. These systems make regular use of moving targets such as heavy bags, focus mitts, and kicking pads. These types of training devices also allow for full power hits, helping to develop the fighters’ ability to hit hard and giving them realistic feedback, both in terms of hitting power, as well as timing and distance. Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai also make regular use of full contact sparring with strikes to a variety of targets, which approximates even closer the dynamics of a real fight.

Absorbing Punishment:
The ability to absorb blows can mean the difference between winning and losing a fight between two evenly matched opponents. It can also play a pivotal role when taking unexpected strikes in real-life situations, such as a surprise sucker punch or a blow from an opponent’s compatriot. A fighter who is used to receiving powerful hits will be more likely to withstand them than one who is relatively inexperienced in taking this kind of punishment.

Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas.

In contrast to this, boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai fighters are regularly subjected to powerful hits to the head, face, and abdominal areas in both sparring and competitions. These fighters develop a remarkable ability to absorb these blows and continue fighting.

The Flawed Centerline Theory:
My conclusion is that the Centerline theory of Wing Chun, while intellectually appealing, is an unsound theory that causes the system to have a variety of defects. This flawed theory, when combined with the inefficient training methods commonly found in Wing Chun, inhibits the ability of its practitioners to develop fighting skills comparable to the levels of those who practice combative sport-type systems such as boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai.

[Phil Redmond]

I haven't finshed reading your post but I had to respond to this.

>>Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.<<

Not in TWC. We are distinctly different from most other WC in that respect. We don't face square on for the reasons you mentioned above.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Re knifefighter's post- you can think what you want. Your representation of wing chun is limited and flawed imo.

On the forum folks often just reassert their position and your reassertion of what you know of wing chun is of that order.

But if that's what you think-its ok by me.

I was going to counter your assertions about wing chun- but decided not to bother.

[yuanfen]

Re knifefighter's post- you can think what you want. Your representation of wing chun is limited and flawed imo.

On the forum, folks often just reassert their position and your reassertion of what you know of wing chun is of that order.

But if that's what you think-its ok by me.

I was going to counter your assertions about wing chun- but decided not to bother with quasi trolling.

[Phil Redmond]

>>In contrast to this, Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai use a staggered stance, which turns the body slightly and moves the vulnerable targets of the center of the body away from the opponent, making them harder to hit. Additionally, these fighters also tuck the head slightly and raise the lead shoulder to further protect the face and neck area.<<

TWC

>>Mobility:
A fighter who moves fast without losing his equilibrium or ability to generate power will have a significant advantage. Mobility is necessary for delivering offensive blows, as well as for complementing defensive techniques.<<

TWC

>>The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In biomechanical terms, this is known as a false step. <<

That's why TWC doesn't do the above.

>>Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only. Because the center must continually face the opponent, the range of the Wing Chun practitioner’s weapons are relatively short. Being constricted to fighting in this range severely limits the ability of the Wing Chun fighter to work in a variety of situations and ranges.<<

TWC is a CENTRAL Line system, not centerline.

>>Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.<<

I never competed in grappling matches but I was a successful kickboxer when I fought in tournaments that allowed knees, elbows and throws, Other examples example are Keith Mazza from NJ and the WC fighters from Australia like Rick Spain and others. Probably too few examples though.

>>A majority of Wing Chun training methods are relatively non-specific to the actual event being trained towards (fighting). One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.<<

It all depends on the the school, but you are right in some cases.

>>Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power. <<

William Cheung wrote in a article that a padded dummy would be more beneficial, but a dummy has other benefits aside from striking power. There are training methods in Muay Thai that are developmental as opposed to fight specific as well.

>>The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.<<

You obviously have no clue here.

>>Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai also make regular use of full contact sparring with strikes to a variety of targets, which approximates even closer the dynamics of a real fight.,,

This can be applied to ANY art. What WC guys have you been watching? Keith Mazza's school in NJ and Duncan Leung's old Great Jones school bursts that myth to name a few.

>>Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas<<

Sorry, I had to chuckle at that one. Who told you chi sau was sparring? BTW, I'm not coming for a WC is superior perspective. I have friends in many arts who are kick a**. You just need to hang out with different WC people if you feel that way.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.<<

You obviously have no clue here.

So, enlighten me. How do you perform Chi Sao?

[Phil Redmond]

The way I do chi sau is is not sparring as you said it was. It teaches forward energy and how to react to different types of contact. You have to learn how to start from a random pre-contact stage and then the principles of chi sau can be applied. Which means you have to do what you probably consider sparring. Tis' not the circling ,flailing hands you may think. I plan on taping some chi sau techinques and show you how they can be applied to real situtations. You'll be seeing them here soon.
http://www.wck-media.co.uk
Then you'll be enlightened my friend.
Phil

[OdderMensch]

Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas.

I know this has been said before and i see Sifu Redmond is beginning a challenge to it, but i would like to add in two cents i have laying around. Chi Sau is not sparring, it is not wing chun sparring it is not a form of sparing. It is a part of a regime of training to improve contact reflexes and awareness of range and timing at such close quarters as WC fights with.

It is not meant to be competitive, but cooperative. It is not meant to make the person hard, or fast, but more skilled.

Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power.

Again, the dummy is not sparring, nor is it for developing power or speed. It is there to refine the skill and positions trained in the sets, and in chi sau. While it can me compared to a boxers heavy bag, it is used to develop an entirely different set of skills. With the bag generating speed and power, while the dummy provides for strength in stance and position.

What is incumbent on the practitioner in either case is PRACTICE.

The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In bio mechanical terms, this is known as a false step.

I'm afraid i don't see this, please explain it in simpler terms for me. I see my stepping as moving my foot to a position, then using my adduction to "drag" my body's center of mass to a position relative to the new position of the lead foot. This allows me to keep my stucture secure, and allows for both defensive and offensive techniques to be be applied simultaneously, while makeing it extremely difficult to be simply pushed or pulled off balance.

This type of movement allows for two other advantages that you do not seem to recognize.

One is that since the body's mass is not moved first, kicks may be generated spontaneously, without the need for shifting the wieght to a stable leg, nor unbalancing the bodys structure.

As a plus to this, it means kicks that fail do not necessary unbalance the body. therefore a kick can simply become a step to re dictate a range on my opponent.

Second, and most important, is the bodys ability (refined by skill and practice) to resettle to a firm structure upon sudden movements of the upper body.

An example of this would be is i took a step (non combative) and you pushed me from a random direction. If i picked up my foot and set it down, then pulled my wieght on top of that foot, if pushed suddenly i could simply land on the non wieghted foot to catch myself. If i moved my bodywiegt forward (exagerated with a lean for clarity) i would need to both pick up and move my foot to a braceing position, requireing two motions instead of one.

The goal of most striking arts is to hit the most vulnerable areas of the body in order to incapacitate the opponent. Keeping these areas as unexposed as possible is an important consideration in combat.

100% agree. Thats why WC teaches to keep the elbows down and in, the hands forward, and the body sesative and alive when in contact. While you may want to face the opponent dead on, you don't have to, you just have to keep that vital area proected at all times. Since WC also belives the best defense is a good offense.................

This type of stance opens up the face, neck, abdomen, and groin to forward, direct blows from the opponent.

Yes, and it defends them with both elbows, both knees, both legs, both arms, both hands and both feet. And it does so boldly. with both eyes and one head focoused. Its not easy, its a very different philosophy than absorbing blows in "les than vital" areas, but it can be done.

Since several vulnerable targets of the body’s center are facing the opponent, the Wing Chun fighter must be concerned with committing many of his resources towards protecting these targets.

In fact, all of them must be directed to this task, and done so by elimiating the threat at the source, IE with attack! How is this possible? because the "same shape defends that attacks"

Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Watch someone preform chum kiu and tell me that WC does not use body rotation. And body rotation is not the only way the body can generate power.

Sigh, saddly i read this post backwards, and now must read what ultimate WC quote about Kickboxing.

LOL but knifefighter, you do have a well thoughtout and reasoned critique.

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

where are you in California? I agree that your statements are true of some Wing Chun, but not all Wing Chun. Karate ranges from Kyushonkai to bad stiff slow motion lacking even the fluidity of geriatric taiji. Boxing goes from aerobics classes to businessmen doing executive boxing to the most serious pros.

Wing Chun has a range too; and you haven't seen part of that range by what you say.

Come to Los Angeles, hang out with me for an afternoon. Maybe we can scare up Dave McKinnon, Ernie, and Dhira. We can work pads and do some mellow live training (30-60%, no ego sh*t) at range, the ground, and from some clinch stuff, maybe hit some pads, trade tricks.

This isn't a challenge, just a friendly invitation. It sounds like you've got some nice experience, and we could all learn from each other.

Sorry not to pick this apart, but I'm kinda sick of internet wars, and, frankly, I share many of your criticisms of the present culture of Wing Chun; I just don't mistake the culture for the art.


Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

I recall Knifefighter stating on a previous thread that he had about 5 years of wing chun experience....

Enough said ???!!!

He's still very much the novice trying to talk Waaaaaaaay above his head - on the subject of wing chun.

But it's not about wing chun - it's really about his beloved BJJ not being given top ranked status...anymore.

Life goes on.

[hunt1]

Knifefighter, Please tell us whose wing chun you are basing your comments on. If you have trained in wing chun who was your teacher and what version of wing chun.

Why do you think that the wing chun you were taught or trained in was representative of all wing chun?

[old jong]

Knifefighter
You just made clear to everybody knowledgable that you never went beyong basic SLT level in Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

After rereading all of this - you know what ?

Take AndrewS up on his offer if you can. From what I hear he and the other guys he mentioned are all good guys with solid skills and attitude-free...

Then you'll have more to go on in terms of forming a judgment about wing chun.

As for grappling - that's another issue. I referred to Catch on the Connecting Wing Chun w/Grappling thread as "a" superior grappling art...Now do I think that it's "the" best ? Yes. But I'm not trying to shove that idea down people's throats - that's just my own private opinion.

Take it for what it's worth...and if it's not worth anything to you - so be it.

[Phil Redmond]

What OdderMensch said

>>. . . Chi Sau is not sparring, it is not wing chun sparring it is not a form of sparing. It is a part of a regime of training to improve contact reflexes and awareness of range and timing at such close quarters as WC fights with.
It is not meant to be competitive, but cooperative. It is not meant to make the person hard, or fast, but more skilled.<<

This was better than my wording.

[Ernie]

knifefighter

**** dude you put some thought into this one

a little to much actually , wing chun is just a training system to develop certian attributes that are highly effective at the right range and the right time ,

each art you broke down can say the exact same thing
range and time

and each can also be countered and taken apart

the key is knowing the range and time and developing the attributes and tools that work best at said range and time


if you took the raw robotic training form from any of these arts
thai round kick , boxers jab , stright blast
and tried to apply them with out any knowledge of range ,timing you would fail or look real stiff


this does happen to any style [ yes alot in wing chun ] when they don't bring live energy into the training and create unpredictable situations were they have to learn to adapt

you see it's not so much the technique or style , it's how well can the individual adapt to a situation and set himself up to use his range and timing and tools while shutting down the other person


2 arms 2 legs the person with the superior attributes and experience and conditioning and lastly skill with a ton of luck will usually come out ahead not the style

problem is alot of people are living in a movie or a story about the old master that can walk on water or gave them the only one true key to the kingdom

instead of just stepping up and doing it for themselves

so no need to rip this or that training approach apart , learn what you can from the individuals that grace your path
from the bjj master to the janitor with that tried true stinky fist ghetto shot