Why Wing Chun is inferior...

[PaulH]

Ah, yes! I feel a little springy in my steps just now. Gary's Gym is calling me! See ya! =)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You are quite right about that... but not for the reason you think.

I will pick up anything I think will help me and has value for the money. I have bought several instructional tapes from other systems and occasionally attend seminars. However, based on checking out his site and my posts back and forth with him, I don't believe his instructionals are value for the money- at least for me. If his "structural" striking is somehow different from what most MMA guys are doing, is different than what I have already figured out for striking on the ground on my own, and manages to do well in MMA/NHB arenas, I'll change my opinion and would be happy to give him some hard earned money for a DVD.

So those DVDs would not be cost effective to you. Cost-effectiveness can be compared to effeciency or economics. Seems to me like a wing chun principle has definately stayed with you. WC is not the only martial art that stresses effeciency, but its a major part of wing chun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
WC is not the only martial art that stresses effeciency, but its a major part of wing chun.

That's actually one of my criticisms about it... to much theoretical efficiency at the cost of performance effectiveness. Something my detractors would understand if they had ever taken a biomechanics/human performance class.

[Gangsterfist]

KF-

You and I are in agreeance about that. I started a thread a few weeks ago expressing my thoughts about kung fu and wing chun and its progression. I agree that many wing chun people think unilaterally about their art.

Wing Chun has many good things behind such as: structure, science, efficiency, and so forth. However, many do not realize its not the only one out there that has science and structure behind it. Hereis a link to the thread.

I don't want to make assumptions or criticize your sifu (who I have never met or trained with), but it seems to me you were not taught by a good wing chun teacher. My sifu always lets us know that wing chun is not bound to the movements of the forms, it builds energies and ideas that can be applied thousands of different ways and to use what works. Kung Fu is a conceptual art, but you cannot make fighting conceptual. You must be able to make that distinction. Fighting is not an exact science, but there is definately science involved.

I can see your view and agree with you on certain aspects, but to come out and call any system inferior is kind of being ignorant IMHO. I like to think of it as WC is more practical for me than karate is, but karate is still a great martial art.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I can see your view and agree with you on certain aspects, but to come out and call any system inferior is kind of being ignorant IMHO.

You are pretty much right about that... and that was pretty much my point in doing it- as a response to someone who made the ignorant claim about the superiority of his system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I'll say it again - Wing Chun Kung Fu offers more answers about the stand-up striking and kicking aspects of fighting than kick-boxing does...because when done properly WC covers not only the long and medium range aspects of fighting but goes WAY BEYOND kick boxing in terms of the short range close infight situation.

And as any BJJ enthusiast should know - the infight is the hardest part of the fight to avoid in a real streetfight. It's VERY difficult to stop someone from coming in and fighting you close when they're determined to "get you"...so your infight, whether standing or grappling on the ground, - better be good.

As Muhammad Ali once said about Chuck Webner - a nobody that Ali beat to a pulp and was the inspiration for the movie "Rocky"....
"If I had to fight him in an alley I'd bring my blade."

So if I could only bring one of those two arts to the desert island it would be Wing Chun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And I'll say it again - Wing Chun Kung Fu offers more answers about the stand-up striking and kicking aspects of fighting than kick-boxing does...because when done properly WC covers not only the long and medium range aspects of fighting but goes WAY BEYOND kick boxing in terms of the short range close infight situation.

WC may have more theoretical "answers". But are they practical? I would say no because, if they were, the majority of kickboxing matches would be dominated by WC practitioners.

[Gangsterfist]

Just because wing chun is not battle tested in the sense of a sporting event does not make it inferior to muay thai, kick boxing, boxing, mma per se. You are again comparing an art that is designed to kill (just like all martial arts) to a fixed position fight with rules and regulations.

How about how wing chun got so popular several hundred years ago in southern chinese fighting circles? Back then there were no refs and no rules, and you may not walk away from the fight if you lose. Wing Chun practitioners cleaned up some of those fighting circles. So, therefore by transitive theory of your logic wing chun is a deeply practical art with tons of combat testing. Not to mention it was being combat tested in life or death situations against other martial artists that trained to kill.

Also take the human nature in as a factor. Each human is different. The untrained fighter and the trained fighter fight different. If you switch the different fighters into different elements they sometimes cannot adapt right away. Especially if you put rules and regulations on it. That is where cross training comes in. The best way to beat a system is to become part of that system. So all the purist that think wign chun is the only martial art you ever need to know and has answers to every possible situation and fighting scenerio are also being ignorant IMO.

Wing Chun is not for every martial artist. If another system suits you better than train in it. I have trained in several martial arts including: Ryukyu Kempo Okinawan Karate, TKD, Taiji quan yang family, wing chun yip man system, a bit of judo and jujitsu, along with chin na and some other MMA type stuff. I have been exposed to many many other styles and know some basic mechanics of them, but those previous ones I listed I have years of experience in. Now, IMHO comparing all the martial arts and training I have gone through Wing Chun is one of the most practical martial arts out there. Now, its is also IMHO that WC does not have answers for everything, but if it fails to give you an immediate answer it should at the very least give you an idea of an answer.

Just some thoughts....

[Gangsterfist]

Oh BTW also boxing and kick boxing make money. Therefore its televised and sponsored, because it makes money. Wing chun is not that flashy of a martial art so astetically speaking it may be boring to watch, where compared to boxing/kickboxing there is tons of bobbing and weaving and pretty looking stuff that people like to watch.

If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.

I mean hell dude they have chi sao competitions at MA tournaments now....LOL

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

The answers they provide are practical if you undersatnd how to use them and train accordingly.

[yuanfen]

If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.((Gangsterfist))
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Good lord- I hope not. If it does I hope that they give it some other name.

[redtornado]

This is a good one!! This has been a great read!!
And really great ?? And answer...'s

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.((Gangsterfist))
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Good lord- I hope not. If it does I hope that they give it some other name.

WCK is an art. Same as Chan is a practiced to go beyond mind conciousness.

Secret Society is a group.

How the world this link together? Doesnt make sense at all.


Sure one can claim such and such secret society in the Qing Dynasty MIGHT practice WCK but then that is individual issue.
NOthing to do with the art of WCK. It is similar to if a movie star practice WCK. that movie star doesnt by default become the Grandmaster of WCK.

Samething with Chan, how the heck when people achive beyond mind conciousness still involving in revenging thoughts?
Dont believe me? get to "now" where the past identity was let go and future self-fufillment was also let go. Now, with this "open" up or "brightness" goes beyond mind, where is those revenge stuffs or emotional....?


Ask Krisnamurti or Eckhart Tolle who has some experience with that silence and beyond mind .... forget about those monks who stuck with riture and tradition or new age hollow wisdom saying but know nothing about beyond mind and denying Buddha's sutras for instruction. They often create thier own Zen with thier mind when others such as Eckhart is talking about beyond that narrow mind.

Read Eckhart or Krisnamurti, atleast that is closer to Chan.


just somethought

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Oh BTW also boxing and kick boxing make money. Therefore its televised and sponsored, because it makes money. Wing chun is not that flashy of a martial art so astetically speaking it may be boring to watch, where compared to boxing/kickboxing there is tons of bobbing and weaving and pretty looking stuff that people like to watch.

While the fans may like the flashier looking fighter, ultimately, the goal in boxing and kick boxing is to win. The guys who win are the ones who continue on to bigger and bigger paydays. Without exception,all the pro boxers/kickboxers and their coaches I have known over the years put practicality as a priority. They don't care how it looks, as long as it helps them to win.

Since so much money is at stake, don't you think these guys would be incorporating WC training into their training regimens if it was so great? And don't you think there would be some WC guys who want to get a slice of the pie by coming in and cleaning up on the boxers and kickboxers?

As far as comparing sport vs. killing art, there is a great article on the main forum that talks about "delivery systems" and its relevency to this type of comparison.

[Gangsterfist]

There are actually tons of boxer's and MMA'ers that cross train wing chun.