How do you train your WC for real fighting?

[Phil Redmond]

Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art. Without going into grappling or cross training, etc., how can/should we train for real fighting using WC alone or do we need augmenataion from outside of WC?
Of course we all know that real fighting has "X" factors but I'd like to know what some of us are doing to prepare for the hard knocks of a real fight when you have no choice but to fight.

[Ernie]

first and foremost

conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects

unless of course you really are willing to bet your life that every situation you could possibly run into will be a 3 second street fight

or you really going to drop a 300 pound fresh out of jail p.issed at the world ruff neck with a chain punch

got to be able to weather the storm


also awareness got to be street savy , if you don't see it coming who cares how devestating your skill is

darn i didn't recall reading about those in the ancient wing chun scroll of wisdom

[PaulH]

Ernie,

How many times I told you to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War? All you need to know are hidden in those sacred bamboo's scrolls! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

P.S Sun Tzu summarized it by saying being able to make an accurate assessment of "Heaven, Man, and Earth" .
For heaven: weather, night or day, or elemental forces
For man: everything about you and your opponents - strength and weakness.
For earth: The special features of the terrain of the fight.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I like your idea for this thread, Phil...but why exclude grappling or crosstraining ? While I agree that wing chun is good enough to win many real fight situations all by itself - nonetheless, you and I both agree, I'm sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)...does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.

So my suggestion is to cover how to train wing chun for real fighting INCLUDING the use of non-wing chun moves...making the final product into a "Wing Chun based" mixed martial art.

How to train it...What to exclude (hours and hours of nonstop chi sao - as just one example - forms are another example)...how NOT to fall into the trap of using TOO MUCH centerline facing - thereby sacrificing power, exposing targets needlessly and slowing oneself down; the importance of conditioning, cardio, and stretching - of long range footwork...

How not to fall into the trap of thinking that exact simultaneous block and strike must ALWAYS be the case...when/how to use broken rhythm and high/low transitions when attacking...and when/how to use a jab...when to retreat (dispelling the MYTH that you must always go forward)...the importance of MOBILITY and light-on-your-feet footwork - especially when closing or avoiding or sidestepping...Oh yes - did I mention SIDESTEPPING...

The importance of how/when to use punching mitts - and kicking shields/bags...how to train on the Wooden Dummy WITHOUT just making it into another "form" (taking the moves out and drilling them against a live partner who throws punches and moves around - and who responds to your attacks)...

How and when to throw realistic kicks that always work to your advantage (some wing chun "players" are basically clueless about kicking)...the importance of Differentiation drills - and how they help prepare for sparring...how to spar realistically...and how often (Answer: OFTEN) ...and last but not least - how and when to use and defend takedowns, clinching, throwing , sweeping and grappling...

That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED "Why Wing Chun Is Inferior" thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.

Shall I start such a thread? Or can we go partners on this one?

Whatever you decide is fine with me.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED "Why Wing Chun Is Inferior" thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.

Since you were the one who made the original assertion about WC being superior to kickboxing, why don't you do a post supporting your position, rather than just mocking my post? Or would that take too much intelligence?

[Phil Redmond]

Victor you, me, Ernie and others, believe in cross training. I just wanted to see what the WC purists would do to prepare themselves for the rigors of all out full contact training using only WC. That's why I omitted grappling. You can jump in here I don't mind. Many fights end up with some sort of grappling anyway. Those that can make their WC training realistic with or without grappling can share here.

[Grendel]

I don't cross train in other martial arts to fill a perceived deficit in Wing Chun. I feel that Wing Chun has all the answers to every question I've ever been asked in a fight, and it's a long path to mastery, but my Wing Chun seems to be improving over the years. However, I do enjoy training with other MA styles.

I worked out with a kickboxer last week who also has studied Wing Chun and is good at both IMO. When combining Muay Thai style kicks in a Wing Chun fashion, I found it very entertaining. If I failed to press and take the superior position, his greater kicking experience brought me up short every time, forcing me to be more aggressive, taking more chances, and taking less time for judging the situation, leading to more exchanges that honestly, I wish I could be certain that I could deal with on the street.

From experiences like this one, I feel that Wing Chun needs to fight its own fight, in the closest possible distance, and stay tight on a kicker or "runner"' rather than letting him set his distance---lessons that my teachers have always stressed. If the Wing Chun man or woman gives the kicker room to kick, that is, at visual distance rather than tactile, then we're giving up our greatest advantage. If we're in our range, there shouldn't be anyone who can get a kick off before we detect the intent. Your mileage may vary.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

The long answer to your question has already begun to be answered in detail by previous posts on this and other threads...

but the short answer to why wing chun offers more than kickboxing is because wing chun...WHEN DONE WELL...covers all the bases that kickboxing does (long range/medium range)...and then ADDS SO MUCH MORE ABOUT THE INFIGHT.

Much more than what is covered in kickboxing.

[yuanfen]

Philsez:
Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art.
----------------
((I have doubts about individuals doing the art but not the art itself- the art involves the most comprehensive use of bone. ligaments, joints and muscle and brain and spirit that I know of- and I have gone the comparative route over time))

Ernie sez:
conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus's knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)

UF sez:
you and I both agree, I'm sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)...does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.
((As far as I can tell no one posting reasonably often on this forum can speak for all of wing chun)))

((On knifefighter's posts...
they are combinations of sarcasm and lack of sufficient knowledge of wing chun IMO. As has been pointed out -he does not know really what a centerline is- but he is not alone on that.
And how to develop that understanding or use it. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Wing chun is a very skillful art but skill development in wing chun
takes longer than basic punching, kicking or wrestling- but adding
on so called missing elements- arrests the development of wing chun skills which addresses different self defense contexts by developing the alert individual and adptive wing chun warrior.

One can develop street awareness without learning any martial art. Some development of common sense helps- dont stare down a hell's angel warlord ina bikerbar- better still-dont go there . Learn some survivor protocol for parking garages and lots and isolated transportaion areas or late night pedestraun travel. Dont flash your money or gold adornments. Develop spatial sense and alertness. Dont spray yourself with pepper spray.WEigh the risks to your life if only a few dollars is involved. Let the macho fools strut and posture- if they are not about to hurt you. Extend your calm periods-minimize paranoia.Weigh the risks of going to an area where civil war or reigious strife is likely.And knifefu and gun fu in the US specially in urban areas and
some rural areas as well( Okie shotgun country for example) has changed the nature of self defense considerably---among many examples note the death of a California champion MT fighter not too long ago.
Off the soap box without checking typos.

[Ernie]

joy
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus's knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)


come on that is such a cop out

you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail

what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man


take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked

stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things

just admit you don't think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival

every one is allowed there view no big deal

[Knifefighter]

Ernie- watch it there, bud. I'm the curmudgeon around here.

[Ernie]

ha ha

i came off strong but there are some things that just trip me out

sorry just must be upset from roid rage

but really it's cool to have your own view but come on

[yuanfen]

Some responses to Ernie:

come on that is such a cop out
((not really- you missed my point))

you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail

((Cmon- I said absolutely nothing of the kind))

what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man

((Cmon again-you missed my point . I didnt argue against being in shape. Nothing wrong with relevant conditioning. Do we need a catalog of training injuries? You listed yours in one or two of your posts. On a differnt point- The list of combative athtletes using chemical enhancement in order to have an edge in combat is getting larger-
Alzado(football), Graham(grappling?), Vargas(boxing) etc etc. The fearsome pro wrestler's case that I alluded to is real.Combative sports folks get more injured in sports than on the street. I have a judo champion friend who has broken practically every bone in his body and has partial paralysis on one side of his face and really had not been ina street fight. In contrast- Wong Shon Leung when I met him
did not have apparent and permanent debilitating injuries from his wing chun fights-
though he had other life challenges. BTW some athletes with anti social tendencies are using guns-if you keep up with the news,.
Some recent posts on the forum havetaken ona hysterical social darwinian macho flavor on fighting.
Again- I repeat- I do not argue against being in the best shape that one can be in. )


take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked

((Who are what are you talking about? Masters should go around looking for a fight these days? Strange values.There are masters who are in shape and those who arent.Again- I didnt write a brief against getting in shape ))

stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things

((???))

just admit you don't think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival

((???!!! Read.Never argued against being in shape. Women and small folks can be in top shape but if they dont develop other attributes-they can be at unnecessary risk.))

every one is allowed there view no big deal

((Agreed- no big deal. I dont argue aginst your training regimen-
if it suits you-that is great. And if knifefighter thinks that wing chun is inferior.....I chuckle- but I aint a missionary- I let people be))

[Gangsterfist]

This is simple. No martial art is created equal, no fighter is created equal. The person who trains the hardest is more likely to succeed. Use what works, there are no superior systems. Wing Chun is not the absolute best martial art out there, its just a really good one.

What makes you win in a real fight - intention. Intent on your actions. If you strike someone, strike them, do not hold back; for all you know they could kill you with their next hit.

Hey, not to mention tons of systems out there have science and structure and are combat tested. Like Choy Lay Fut, Taiji, Wing chun, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, Krav Maga just to name a few are all good martial arts that are proven to win fights.

Too much politics in kung fu. This is traditional thats not. Your mythilogical lineage is a myth, my mythicological lineage is not a myth because I have this painting that can barely be read says so. Who cares? The truth is yes wing chun does have its flaws. For one is way too **** political and argued over its freaking roots when no one can prove or disprove any theory.

I guess my point is, that I cross train in 2 major martial arts now. Wing Chun (Yip Man system) and Taijiquan (Yang style). Then I also supplement a few ground fighting styles like wrestling, judo, and jujutsu. I have a few years of okinawan training as well. And I use it all. I still use some external karate techniques that I learned almost 10 years ago, because they work. Thats the bottom line, it works so I use it. All of my internal attacks are usually taiji based movements and some are wing chun. All my nuetral techniques are definately Heavily Wing Chun based. Another thing, is that I could break each movement down and clarify where I learned it from. For example break each block, counter, attack, defensive movement I do and say if its wing chun, taiji, karate, judo or whatever and you know what? It would be pretty much a waste of time, because all that matters is that it works and that I won the fight.

[Ernie]

joy
i got your point but you then add in extremes which lead the '' ponit into a way out direction .

being in good shape has nothing to do with training injuries if your staying in shape you minimize injuries ,
my in juries came from extreme sports like down hill mountain biking , snow boarding and such
if i wasn't in good shape i may never have been able to recover and actually improve as i age

skill is skill your right and i agree you don't need to be in tip top shape to advance your skill

but were talking about the street were often you get caught off gaurd and you need to be in good enough shape to recover and or maintain

you need to run , jump climb what ever to survive a bad situation

you need to be able handle a rain of punches and kicks and still get up swinging

that is more a reality then the stretch of saying being in shape will lead to injuries

i think worse case not hope for best case

as for wong well he would get wrecked in todays arena as well
but at least he ran and swam and stayed in shape when he was fighting

he never had to face the caliber of fighter that is out today , not to say he couldn't adapt he was a proven street fighter not like most others that just talk the talk

and for that i respect his acomplishments

but that was then and this is now

people are in better shape and fighting skill is out there

but like i said your view is your reality and mine is mine i don't want to ruin phils thread