Wan Lai Sheng and 1928 National arts tournament

[Kennyfist]

Hello,
I read that in the 1928 National arts tournament in Nanjing there were 13 surviving contestants one being Kuo Yu Cheung. But read somewhere that Zhu guofu was ranked "first" whereas read somewhere else that KYC was considered the best fighter.
Could anyone with good research clarify:
1) Who were the 13 remaining contestants (read somewhere that it was 17)
2) Was WLS amongst them
3) was there such a thing as a "winner" amongst the 13/17
4) Did KYC ever get defeated by WLS in sparring match (can't remember where I read that).

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Question 1:

I once had the names of all 13 champions of the 1928 First National Tournament but I lost them. At one time it was published in one of the older Wu Lin Mag but I cannot remember the year it was published. However, I can offer you some names off the top of my head:

Kuo Yu Chang of BSL and Hsing I
Li Hsin Wu of BSL and Tan Tui
Ma Cheng Hsin of Seven Star Praying Mantis
Wang Shao Chou of BSL and Ch'a Styles
Chu Kuo Chen of BSL and Hsing-i
Chu Kuo Fu of BSL and Hsing i
Chu kuo Lu of BSL and Hsing i

Not sure about these names:
Ch'ien Chan Sheng of Ch'a
Wu Chih Ch'ing of BSL

Other winners but were not part of the 13 champions:
Keng Te Hai of Tai Sheng (Monkey Style) won the weapons competition. The weapon he used was...no, it was not the Staff but the sword.

Fu Chen Sheng won the Internal Form section.

Question 2:
No, Wan Li Sheng was not one of the 13 Champions. He had to step away from competition after his bout with a White Crane opponent and even after WLS defeated him. But to WLS's disappointment, he broke his hand when he broke the White Crane opponent's jaw and could not continue. WLS end up placing #48.

Question 3:
As the fights continued and was down to the final 13 contestants, the government stopped the tournament. The audience became angry because they wanted a single champion but the officials thought if the fights continued, the results would end up in deaths because of the high degree of skills among the remaining contestants.

THe 13 grouped together and voted among themselve who was the best between them. Depending on which article one reads tthat was written during the tournament, there were two names: Kuo Yu Chang and one of the Chu brothers, I think it was Chu Kuo Chen. But it was more of a popularity between the 13 Champions and nothing really to support that anyone was really the single best.

Question 4:
WLS and KYC never fought. They respected each other skills and exchanged knowledge. WLS was the "Bruce Lee" type in those days with a chip on his shoulder and really did not care to teach. He decline many students who had travel from far parts of the country, seeking him for lessons. After the 1928 First national Tournament, WLS felt deep down that he was better than at least 12 of the 13 champions and set out a goal to challenage each of them. WLS only wanted to test the skills of masters and went around the country, challenging many masters and Grand masters. He won and exposed many fakes and he also lost some fights. Many of his matches ended in a tie. When he deafeated 12 of the Champions, he was given the title: Flower of the National Arts. WLS feared only two types of masters and is documented that he decline fights once he learned that the opponents had such skills.

What kind of masters were these men who would strike fear in someone like WLS, who's skills in CMA has earn him the title: "FLower of the National Arts"?

They were masters who were skilled with Iron Palm and especially masters who were experts in Golden Bell techniques. KYC was an expert in both.

[Kennyfist]

Hi Northernshaolin,
wow... you should write a book on the history of chinese martial arts in the early 1900's especially chin wu and BSL...!
Thanks again for sharing the information.
Could you point for me where to locate good info on that era of chinese martial arts.....
Do you know anything about the WLS and Zhang qinlin incident----read it somewhere but not sure whether its true.

I have a copy of WSL wushu Huizhong but do you know or have a listing of his other books/publications (if you have ISBN and publishers' then it would be great!)

Much appreciated...

Thanks.

[fanzi]

My Sifu, Chen Ying is a student of Wan Lai Shen. He teaches Liu He Men and Zi Ran Men (Natural Style Boxing) of Wan Lai Shen. His english isn't good, but I bet if you called or visited him, he'd more than likely be happy to talk about his Sifu. He's told us a couple stories about how Wan Lai Shen was young but would challenge these old masters. That he had had written a book in his youth about martial arts and the various styles and that ****ed a lot of older masters off.

www.sifuchenying.com

[fanzi]

Kennyfist (or anyone who knows):

Where can I get a copy of a Wan Lai Shen book in english?

[NorthernShaolin]

fanzi,

Sorry but none of WLS's books are in English.


KF,

There are several books and I know that there are more than what I've listed. Sorry but much of the info is incomplete.

1. Wu Shu Nei Wai, 1925
This is the book that upset many masters as Fanzi mention above. It conatined many items that were secret or mysterious.

2. Attack and Defence in Martial Arts, Date UK

3. Spear Play in 24 Shape, Date UK

4. Qigong, Date UK

Books #2, #3, and #4 I believe were re-prints of sections from book #1

5. Lui Ho Chuan, Saber, and Spear, HK, Date UK, Publisher Mien Wah ?
Another re-print of sections from book #1.

6. Kuo Shu Fighting Methods, 1994, ISBN 7-81003 914-8/G

7. Shao Lin Lui Ho Men, 1987, Volumne 1, 2, and 3
(COntains four hand sets, one spear, two saber sets, and two sword sets and one fighting sword set... All Wu Shu-ized)

A good source of TCMA history are the old Martial Art Hero Mag. and Martial Mag. that were published in the 1970's and 80's.

WLS and Zhang qinlin incident...can you give me more info? I'm aware about several of WLS encounters but the name of this incident does not connect.

[Kennyfist]

Thanks Northernshaolin,
Wushu Nei Wai is not the same book as wushu huizhong is it?
What does "Nei Wai" mean ie the chinese characters for the 2 words?
I'm aware Wan Laishing in PRC has "Qigong teaching material" and "fighting methods teaching material". They are not published by a commercial publisher and I'm not sure if they correspond with some of the books you mentioned.

Supposedly some say Wan Laishing'[s encounter with Yang family ended up in him facing a student of Yang family surnamed Zhang in which Wan broke his wrist (so they say). Not sure how true it is. A bit like these days say decades after someone passes away you get these stories coming up "hey so and so got beaten by so and so..." and guess where the story comes from....the winning party's conincident or what...?

I know you have good research sources Northernshaolin...could you share some of the Wan Laishing incidents because its hard to locate info on Wan even in chinese (based on my limited resources).....

Thanks again for sharing. Much appreciated.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Fanzi:

Without sounding too presumptuous, how long have you studied with Chen Ying, and did you study anywhere else prior?

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[fanzi]

I studied with Chen Ying in '96 when he was at USA Shaolin Temple. When he left there that same year, I, not knowing any better, stayed at USAST. In 2002 I went back to Chen Ying and only wish I'd done it sooner.

Thanks Northern Shaolin and Kennyfist for the info.

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Wu Shu Nei Wai translates to A Compendium of Wu Shu. My mistake, it was published in 1928, not 1925. During that same year, 1928, WLS was publishing a series of articles in the Peking Morning News.

About WLS and Zhang qinlin (Chang Ch'ing Ling) incident, I read a slightly different version. Chang was trained by Yang Pan Hou who was the son of Yang Lu Ch'an and was a classmate of the younger Yang Ch'eng Fu. Chang could root his feet so well that they would sink into the ground. Observers notice that WLS and CCL were of equal abilities and when they cross arms, both men injured their hands and the fight was determined to be a draw.

There was another incident with the Yang Family that involves WLS. WLS challenged Yang Ch'eng Fu and both agreed to use pushing hand teachiques. Now at this time, Yang weigh three hundred pounds and WLS pushed Yang up into the air. Up to this time, no one had ever uprooted Yang Ch'eng Fu. This was proof as to how good WLS really was and even more impressive to beat a well known master at his own techniques.

I have two other stories about WLS and I'll write them either later today or next week.

[NorthernShaolin]

A Challenge with a Lesson

In 1912 Chin Woo (Jing Mo) was setting up an association in Shanghai. A grand opening was to be held with an open tournament. At this time, WLS was very young and was very proud of himself. To the disappointment of WLS, there was no sparring but to match one’s skills in sets. Judges were to evaluate constants on their performance. All winners would win a prize. WLS won but not the grand prize and became upset. He expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges and told them the prize was cheap.

Later at a nearby monastery, WLS expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges with some friends. The head monk, Chueh Yuen, overheard WLS’s statement. He told WLS that he saw the contest and in his opinion, he felt WLS was lucky it was not a sparring contest; otherwise he would have lost to the other two men, Wu T’ien Ch’eng and Chen Kung Che of Eagle Claw. This upset WLS and challenged the 50-year-old monk.

The next day, WLS went on the stage where the previous contest occurred and did some sets to show off. Rules were drafted and both fighters agreed. The monk signed first while WLS stood behind him. When it was WLS turn to sign, he suddenly complained of stomach pains and wanted to see a doctor right away.

The next day, the head monk went to see WLS and asked him why he backed out of the fight. WLS told the monk that as he was standing behind him, waiting to sign, he listen to his breathing. Instantly he knew he would lose because he recognized the breathing technique of Golden Bell. He knew that he could not win against someone who possesed this knowledge.

[fanzi]

What's the breathing technique of golden bell?

[Kennyfist]

I'm not sure exactly, but I think it involves abdominal breathing coordinated with raising and lowering the palms together with compressing the breath into the lower dantian.
But what characteristic in the practitioners' "normal' breathing enabled WLS to detect golden bell training I'm not sure, unless the guy was warming up with his breathing training...........

Anyone know whether many of YSM students still practice and teach golden bell. Any other students of KYC teach the golden bell techniques.

You should specifically ask Northernshaolin or other KYC-YSM lineage practitioners because KYC was an expert in golden bell but not sure whether small golden bell or large golden bell.

Thankyou Northernshaolin for sharing an interesting story with us.
I would expect WSL to have some golden bell training because I think he mentioned briefly the method in his book.

[count]

Originally posted by fanzi
Kennyfist (or anyone who knows):

Where can I get a copy of a Wan Lai Shen book in english?

I saw this being promoted just the other day on another forum.

hi everyone

for anyone interested in the traditional Taoist energy boxing arts here is a new book which will be out soon.

'Ziranmen - Taoist natural boxing'

based on translations of Wan Lai Sheng's groundbreaking book on Chinese martial arts, with detailed introduction and commentary by Serge Augier (fifth generation ziranmen) , and additional research notes on Wan's teachers and other aspects of this rare art.

volume one will focus on ziranmen qi-gong, nei-gong, taoist meditation, zrm jibengong , fighting poems and training skills, history of the art and Wan's memories of his teachers.

we will post a few extracts soon on the site

www.whitecraneinstitute.com

(Serge Augier's site)

_wishing you all good training

alex kozma

Interesting this topic being dicussed on the same forum as well. How many of you guys are posting at Empty Flower under different screen names? LOL

[omarthefish]

I won't know if this forum supprts Chinese fonts or not untill after this post. If it does, I would really love to see the names of any published sources for the names/dates of any of the contests of that era. As soon as I get paid in a few weeks you got me thinking I seriously need to drop a little cash on some of this stuff. I've been getting much more into the history of that era as well and would value some documentation tremendously.

Any reccomendations. I'm in mainland China right now so there's actually a lot available but if you had any reccomendations...I'd be curious to hear them. Somehow it never occured to me that there would be some big almanac type books or something on the subject.

I've got an article with a really cruddy picture of the newspaper article announcing the famous fight between some Russian wrestler and a noted bagua master that happened in 1918 but if, for instance, there was a way to get a proper scan of the newspaper article or even....*gasp* a copy of the paper from back then...how woudl one look for that sort of thing?