Wan Lai Sheng and 1928 National arts tournament

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

KYC was a master of Small Golden Bell. Large Golden Bell became a lost art by the end of the Boxer rebellion for obvious reasons.

WLS did not learn Small Golden Bell until after that particular fight in 1912. He was only 19 years old and still learning different aspects of TCMA.

omarthefish,

Try going to the original newspaper agency and see if they micro film their old newspaper articles. Some of the large libraries in Shanghai may have copies in micro-film. Also try some of the universities' libraries.

Seek out the original articles because many contain eye witnessed first hand knowledge of the events. Stay away from the comtemporary articles written after 1960's and especially after 1970's because PRC forced all historians to tone down the writing of all China's MA heros. (To prevent ideas of rebellion or revolution against authority i.e., their govenment. Many TCMA heros stood and fought against authority like the Emperor.)

[NorthernShaolin]

omarthefish,

When you come home, back to the States, you can try Stanford University. They have a large collection of Chinese Martial arts books in their library. You may be able to find something written in the 1920;s or 30's about these events. Worth the shot.

[omarthefish]

Thanks for the tips. Good ideas. I'm a bit far from Shanghai but I'm sure I'll get my chance. Actually, just reading the thread got me all itching to check out some of the larger bookstores in town. There are often these big encyclopedic type books on MA that I used to tend to avoid. But lately...I might want to give them a second look, especially when the $120 hardcover tomes in China are more like 120 yuan. (ie about $14)

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Here is the last incident I have on Wan Li Sheng.

In 1931, every province in China was setting up National Arts Province Schools. Chairman of Hunan Province, Ho Ch’ien invited WLS to be head of the Hunan National Arts Training Institute. During this time Ma Yuen Lin, who was not pleased with the appointment of WLS, controlled the local MA centers.

Ma took his top students, Tang Hui Tien, Lu Chan Shan, and Hwang Chuan I to visit Ho Ch’ien and WLS and to express his dissatisfaction as an outsider being appointed and questioning why a youth would be holding such an important position.

WLS was ready to decline the position but Ma would not drop the subject about outsiders coming in to Hunan to run their National Arts School.

A tournament was set up to resolve this dilemma. Ma Yuen Lin represented Hunan Shaolin and Pao Chuan and was the most famous fighter in Hunan Province. All of his students were experience fighters. Both signed the next day a No Fault Death contract. Ma wanted his eldest student, Lu Chan Shan, to fight WLSD first.

Lu attacked first with a Shaolin techniques called ‘Turn the body like a Tornado Fire Wheel”. WLS counter with a BSL Shaolin Wei T’o Liu Ho technique. When Lu attacked again, WLS countered with a Spontaneous Boxing technique by jumping backwards into an empty step. Lu did not know that WLS was making a feint and as Lu step forward, WLS also went forward with a jamming kick. WLS broke Lu ankle and Lu went down. WLS went to aid Lu but Ma’s face turned red and shouted, “I lost face, WLS, fight me now!”

WLS tried to explain that it was an accident but Ma was unreasonable and quickly attacked. WLS stepped back 10 steps until he had to fight. Ma’s Iron Palm cut through the air with such force that it could be heard. WLS used Ch’ing Kung (Art of Lightness) to retreat. Ma was an experienced fighter and would not attack directly. He used continuous linking kicking techniques. WLS would advance then retreat but always maintain his position.

When WLS saw the right moment, he attacked. He leaps forward like a cat going up a tree with one foot on Ma’s chest and the other kicking out quickly. WLS rolled away and quickly got up only to see blood coming out of Ma’s mouth. Ma could not raise himself off the floor. WLS supported Ma’s head and told him he was sorry. Ma’s students swarmed up around WLS but Ma told them to go back. As tears fell from his eyes, Ma said, “ My skills are not as good as yours. What else can I say?”

As Ho Ch’ien and WLS helped Ma back to his place, Ma realized he was very narrow-minded and soon Ma and WLS became good friends.

[Kennyfist]

Hi Northernshaolin,
Thanks for sharing the info. Again very much appreciated.
I like WLS stuff, I collected some of his writings and he is an interesting MA. (Though I much prefer if he wrote in less formal chinese).
The Lui He fist set he detailed in his 1928 book only contains 24 postures (named in Lyrics) but that transmitted by Yim Shang Mo contains more; but can be explained by additions by KYC.

Did YSM ever inherit the Natural school (Spontaneous) boxing from WLS?
I know you already mentioned that the Natural boxing doesn't have sets, but I'm curious about the section in his 1928 book where he runs through an "illustrated explanation of Natural boxing" and from the way he presented it resembles an ordered sequence-----did YSM learn and teach that "set" ?

My sources on Natural school boxing mainly come from WSL writings which is limited, I think he may have written an entire book on Natural school post 1928 but I haven't got it. If you have anymore info on Natural school or know of some good reliable sources could you share or mention them-------very interesting stuff and makes great reading as have been your sharing of the WLS stories.

Thankyou again for such an interesting thread and hope you drop a gem now and then on this forum------ very good motivation for checking the forum often!

[brassmonkey]

Was/is golden bell and iron palm overrated back then?

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

YSW at one time did attempt to teach Spontaneous Boxing when he taught in Kwangchou. He taught the techniques called 'Inside circle", "Devil's Head and Hand" and "Little Devil Waggles his Head". Later he elected only to transmit the 10 hand sets of Liu Ho and when he arrived in HK (about mid 1950's), it was only one Lui Ho hand set that he taught.

WLS taylored down his original 10 Lui Ho Chuan sets down to four by the 1980's.

Brassmonkey,

Only my opinion but Golden Bell and Iron Palm in the old days is nothing in comparison to what we have today. In the old days the practice of Golden Bell and Iron Palm was at a higher level of expertise and what we observe today is only an elementary level of what it used to be.

omarthefish,

Look for these two books:

The Great Dictionary of Chinese Wu Shu by People's Athletic Publications, 1990. (Cost $60 in the USA). An excellent book that includes not only the most famous master but also descriptions of over 200 different styles of TCMA and all the various types of TCMA weapons that ever existed in the last 2000 years.

Kuo Shu Famous People Documentary by Jin Yen Joung.
Original date unknown but was part of the Kuo Shu National Arts schools (Re-printed in Taiwain in 1970). Just short bio on famous TCMA masters of the last 100 years (starts at 1930 and count back 100 years).

I'm looking for:
Ma Liang's book, Ch'uan Chiao K'o (Fist and Foot techniques) Shanghai, 1917. If you can buy this one for me, it would be greatly appreciated!

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Okay i found the names of the Champions in weaponless division. Actually I got 15 names and it is in Pinyin, not Yale. I've always read that there were 13 but I guess not. Perhaps two of these individuals were left off because of ....politics in CMA?

Zhu Guofu
Zhu Guolu
Zhu Guozhen
Wang Chengzhang
Wang Yunpeng
Zhang Changyu
Zhang Weitong
Zhang Yinzhen
Dou Laigeng
Yang Fawu
YangShiwen
Ma Pizhi
Ma Yupu
Gu Ruzhang
He Fusheng

These were the top 15 out of 333 contestants with 150 contestants fighting it out for the final rounds. No considerations were made for body weight or time limits. Also there was no body protection and so it is told blood flowed freely and bones were broken without hesitation.

[kai men]

I am delighted to read this thread. Thanks a lot , Northernshaolin, for sharing. We have been very fortunate to be here and read this piece of real knowledge.
I want to abuse a little adding a question: ¿Can you tell me about YSM learning the Liu Ho Style?
Kindest regards
horacio

[NorthernShaolin]

kf,

here is a web site that has a direct lineage to Wan Li Sheng. He is in France.

http://www.perso.wanadoo.fr/wanlaish...tituteTeaching

According to this web site, WLS wrote 15 books on CMA.

His curriculum (in Lui Ho Chuan) is the closes to what I understand what WLS originally taught just before PRC.

kaimen,

I have been told by my elders and yours too, that before YSW learned BSL from KYC, he learned from WSL. I've seen articleswritten concerning this issue and in the original artilcle, it had a letter of introduction from WLS to KYC about one of his student, YSW, wishing to learn BSL from KYC and would he accept him as a student.

[kai men]

Northernshaolin, as usual I can only thank you. You ve improved my information about so many subjects....thanks a lot
horacio

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
A Challenge with a Lesson

In 1912 Chin Woo (Jing Mo) was setting up an association in Shanghai. A grand opening was to be held with an open tournament. At this time, WLS was very young and was very proud of himself. To the disappointment of WLS, there was no sparring but to match one’s skills in sets. Judges were to evaluate constants on their performance. All winners would win a prize. WLS won but not the grand prize and became upset. He expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges and told them the prize was cheap.

WLS was born in 1903, that would make him 9 yo in 1912. I know WLS as I have met him him and studied with him when I was in Fuzhou. I also have a number of photos of him practising with his son and senior students. Most of the stories about him are not true.

[Blacktiger]

Hi Guys

Some great information here on WLS. I study with Master Liu De Ming 5th generation linage holder of Liu Zi Ran Men in Australia he has been here for a number of years now.
In terms of the linage with the French school its not really direct at all. Before Grandmaster Wan pasted away he appointed Master Hong Zheng Fu and then Master Hong passed this to Master Liu De Ming.

Alot of people came and saw Grandmaster Wan in his later years, and when he got older he told alot of people what they wanted to hear, "Oh yes you are heir to Zi Ran Men etc etc", as they were paying him cash which he needed as he was with out a home etc. The sad thing to see was that none of the money or profit gained from this use of Grandmaster Wans's reputation was ever sent back or returned to the family out of respect..... Just some info for you as told to me when asked about this topic by Master Liu De Ming 5th gen linage holder.

Northern Shaolin love your information, very good. I thought I would drop a link to our website for those that may be intrested in tracking contacts/teachers and inforamtion on this style that WLS made famous.

http://www.ziranmen.com/

[Blacktiger]

If you want to see some cool pictures of Grandmaster Wan when he was very young check out the site above on my previous post. Go to "arts" on the site then "Zi Ran Men" and you can see him when he was 20 or so in various stances etc meditating and circle walking on the rice basket etc.

Enjoy

[Happykiwi]

Great photos, Blacktiger. Thank you! I particularly like the bit about knocking the rice basket over and having to start from the beginning again. Wicked! LOL
I will submit some of the photos I have of him when I get the chance. There is no doubt, the guy was an awesome fighter!