The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Empty Fist]

I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months. Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi. Anyway, I started reading a book called Moving Zen – One Man’s Journey to the Heart of Karate by CW Nicol. There is a passage in his book where he awoke from a deep sleep. The building that he was staying in Japan was shuddering, screens were rattling, and the floor beneath him was moving. At first he thought it was an earthquake. He got out of bed, and went downstairs and a bunch of Karatekas (including Donn Draegar, a famous Karateka) were watching a teacher of tai chi chuan punch the pillars of the house, his fist only moving a few inches at a time. All of them could not believe the deceptive power coming from this tai chi master (Mr. Wong). Mr. Wong could also withstand any blows to his body (except to the face). Mr. Wong was about 250 pounds and fifty years old. Several Karateka tried punching Mr. Wong’s stomach only to hurt their wrist. He also sent flying with a single push several Karateka all lined up in a row (all together weighed about 800 pounds). Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months.

You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi.

No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

The difference between seemingly superhuman Taiji and run of the mill karate are training methods. Obviously, nobody gave the real beef to Nakayama.

[Empty Fist]

You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Have a teacher. I have been studying for about 3 years. Disagree. Karate is a good art to take up in order to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks. Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

See prior answer.

[Joseph_alb]

Hey Emptyfist are you sure it was Wong? coz 250 pounds sounds more of a Wang to me. Wang Shu Chin was famous for withstanding blows to his belly, and i think Don Draegar met him.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Have a teacher. I have been studying for about 3 years. Disagree. Karate is a good art to take up in order to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks.

Yes, well Taiji goes quite a bit further than the crash 'n bash of karate... You will never decipher the application for say, single whip using karate. And that's just one little tiny example. You also don't seem to grasp what RD said in another copy of this thread about the differences in power generation between Karate and Taiji. Outwardly a karate punch may LOOK similar to a Taiji punch, but the body mechanics are COMPLETELY different. Can your teacher show you the difference? Just wondering because it's obvious you have not seen, or felt the difference.

Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't make Karate Taiji. If they're so similar, how come Nakayama could not replicate what the Taiji guys showed him? He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.

[Empty Fist]

Hey Emptyfist are you sure it was Wong? coz 250 pounds sounds more of a Wang to me. Wang Shu Chin was famous for withstanding blows to his belly, and i think Don Draegar met him.

The book refers to Wong. Maybe the book is wrong

[Empty Fist]

Outwardly a karate punch may LOOK similar to a Taiji punch, but the body mechanics are COMPLETELY different. Can your teacher show you the difference? Just wondering because it's obvious you have not seen, or felt the difference.

I know what I’m talking about and felt both (on the receiving end). Totally disagree with you. Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch. Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't make Karate Taiji. If they're so similar, how come Nakayama could not replicate what the Taiji guys showed him? He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.

Maybe...... it takes a lot longer to master Taiji compared to karate.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I know what I’m talking about

Sorry, you don't.

and felt both (on the receiving end). Totally disagree with you. Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch.

You are going to find that everybody and anybody who has had decent instruction in Taiji are going to disagree with your assessment. It seems to me whoever is showing you Taiji, sux at it. Because if you'd seen the real thing, there would be no question in your mind that the mechanics behind a Karate punch are completely different than that of a Taiji punch. Karate does not have concepts like the seven stars, rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling, and one final thing that is absolutely alien to Karate- silk reeling. None of those elements are in Karate, but they are the very fabric of Taiji.

Are you still going to try and tell me they're the same?

Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

I've been hit by many- and not one of them came close to even two-year Xingyi students' punches.

it takes a lot longer to master Taiji compared to karate.

Go ahead and dine at McD's, I prefer steakhouses.

[Vash]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
Karate does not have concepts like . . . rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling . . .

I'd generally put an "lol" or somesuch here, but I think a " " or " " will suffice.

Now, admittedly, these things tend to be self-discovered as opposed instructed due to lack of verbal communication in the earlier development and cross-cultural transmission of karate. But, I assure you, they are there.

There's bunches of articles relating to Chin ku chi over in the Ultimate OMA Thread, you might check those out.

As for "silk reeling," I've not experienced, nor seen this. Of course, my exposure to Tai Chi is rather limited. But, again, many of the "higher level" concepts of CMA are present in OMA, but their transmission in curriculum is sadly lacking.

[Empty Fist]

Sorry, you don't.

And you are qualified to tell me that I’m not????? LOL. Thanks for the laugh.

It seems to me whoever is showing you Taiji, sux at it. Because if you'd seen the real thing, there would be no question in your mind that the mechanics behind a Karate punch are completely different than that of a Taiji punch

My instructor has studied under William CC Chen for the past 20 years. That name speaks for itself. You need to get better instruction if you can’t tell the similarities between a karate punch and a Taiji punch.

Karate does not have concepts like the seven stars, rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling,.

They are all there. Also without root no one can execute a punch.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Don't want to take sides in this but I'm sorry but a Karate punch and a Taiji punch differ considerably. Wang Shu Jin looked down on Karate so much, not that I am saying that one should, because he said it DIDN'T utilize qi, Jin or internal methods, and that was from the era in the 50's when he went out to Japan and met the contemporary Masters on their own turf and totally trounced them with his Taiji.
If their art back then still contained all the concepts that have been mentioned why did he say that they didn't when his sensitivity could easily recognise that thier art was in no way internal?

[Empty Fist]

All I'm saying is the body mechanics are similar in some techniques expecially a punch. I do agree the execution of a punch is quite different. Digging deeper, Karate or external arts would use hard jin where as internal arts use soft jin. All I wanted to do is understand Karate basics and how to apply the basics in Karate using Taiji principles.

[CaptinPickAxe]

you have apples and oranges...but it doesn't mean you have fruit salad. Theres so much missing. Qi cultivation. Silk reeling. The Yin Yang concepts. Breathing correctly. So much. Its like looking at a painting but only in black and white. Taiji is seriously lacking with out cultivation of qi, and you MUST have an experienced Taiji shifu to guide you.

[gazza99]

RE: "Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch. Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about. "

I have trained with Karate practioners that by comparison to the general karate public I consider *good*. One of my best friends was also a Black belt in Shotokan, and Ive touched hands with at least a dozen Karate instructors with 20+ years exp.

But being a Taijiquan teacher, and having had to experience re-teaching multiple Karate black belts and instructors punching and mechanics, I have to disagree with the above statement completely. There are so many mechanical differences, I really dont have time to lay it out. But in a nut-shell it can be summed up in a few words....whole body power.......sung.....jing....


Gary R

[Repulsive Monkey]

Absolutely, the whole plethora of body cultivation, in relaxing the upper cavities and freeing them of tense strength, hlding the body tense anyway, circulating qi, cultivating qi, projecting qi, the whole area of Ching, Qi and Shen, etc.

And whats this rubbish about Neijia only using the soft Jin's and Karate the hard one's ?? In Neijia all Jin's are available.

I think the over-riding issue mentioned here from the start was that you can't learn Taiji by studying Karate, that much is total fact.