The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Empty Fist]

And whats this rubbish about Neijia only using the soft Jin's and Karate the hard one's ?? In Neijia all Jin's are available.

I agree. Let me restate that taiji emphasizes soft jin vs hard jin.

I think the over-riding issue mentioned here from the start was that you can't learn Taiji by studying Karate, that much is total fact.

I never said one can study karate in order to learn taiji. What I did say is that you can study karate to get a better understanding of kicks, punches, and blocks and apply them to taiji (using taiji princiapals).

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
[B]
And you are qualified to tell me that I’m not????? LOL. Thanks for the laugh.

Sir, you are qualifiying yourself to be discounted by your statements.

My instructor has studied under William CC Chen for the past 20 years. That name speaks for itself.

20 years and he can't show you the difference? I hope his name does not speak for William CC Chen...

You need to get better instruction if you can’t tell the similarities between a karate punch and a Taiji punch.

Heh. I have no doubts about my instruction, guy. You are barking up the wrong tree, as the consensus is against you.

They are all there. Also without root no one can execute a punch.

Re-read Repulsive Monkeys comments on Wang Shu Jin. Nobody in the Karate world used that term until he came along.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

You will never decipher the application for say, single whip using karate.


I can't say for sure, but this sounds correct. It's hard enough to get the applications doing Taiji



He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.

LOL, this may show a little bit that Taiji and Karate can outwardly look similar. My take on it is that they seem related , the footwork is similar, backfist are used similarly( with the other hand touching the crease of the elbow) and some techniques and sequences are very similar. The big anomaly to me is silk reeling, which seems unique to Taijiquan and Daoist qigong, but I really don't know, silk reeling could be shaolin. You cannot see the internal, it seems like you did nothing but the opponent goes running out. I think Taiji is different but related. Karate might be as related( or more maybe) to Taiji externally, as the other IMA's are internally. I don't worry to much about words like rooting and such, they're important for learning yourself, but on a forum I just think it comes down to the internal

[Empty Fist]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain


20 years and he can't show you the difference? I hope his name does not speak for William CC Chen...

Actually William CC Chen is known for applying taiji principals with boxing, karate, and mui tai etc. He is very open minded to other martial arts since there are some (I stress some) similarities. If I’m not mistaken, his son Max has won numerous medals in boxing and San Shou. His daughter Tiffany is also well respected.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"I never said one can study karate in order to learn taiji. What I did say is that you can study karate to get a better understanding of kicks, punches, and blocks and apply them to taiji (using taiji princiapals)."

You've just repeated yourself here and contradicted yourself. You're saying that you can learn Karate and take your Karate and apply your Karate understanding to Taiji. Is it that you wish to internalise your Karate? If so don't bother to my knowledge no one has ever really successfully created an internal Karate, becuase when you think that learning a punch in Taiji is the same as learning a punch in Karate, the one you learnt in Karate will have to be re-learned all over again from the beginning. You might aswell learn Taiji on it's own. It would prove most difficult if in fact impossible to intermalise Karate by the very nature that it requires the use of Li and not Qi which is it's direct opposite. Let's say that you have complete Taiji principles fitted into the Karate shapes of their postures, if successful you will no longer have Karate. It will be a mutant cross-breed (and not necessarily a successful one!) of Internal ideas from Taiji and external shapes from Karate.

Fact is is that Wiiliam C.C. Chen's son Max is not famed for his Taiji as he prefers western boxing and never cam enear his father in his internal studies and by all accounts from what I heard is no real internalist. I cannot make a statement about his daughter.

[Brad]

Fact is is that Wiiliam C.C. Chen's son Max is not famed for his Taiji as he prefers western boxing and never cam enear his father in his internal studies and by all accounts from what I heard is no real internalist. I cannot make a statement about his daughter.

His daughter is very good at pushhands, and she's had some sucess in San Shou too.

[Brad]

Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?

[GroungJing]

I’ve had the opportunity to on two occasion to compare and contrast with a 2nd dan in Gojo Ryu and a 4th dan Koei Kan on the mechanics of an internal punch contrasted to an external punch.

From what I’ve experienced the external method is more mechanical nature. I would have to make a long-winded post to detail what I witnessed in their body mechanics. But, in short both used more upper body and no ground jin. They used their root just to get the power behind their hips and shoulders but it didn’t go beyond that.

[Vash]

Well, I've never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.

But, I've studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I'd love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I'm horrible at that kind of thing.

Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Brad
Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?

Good question!

What is real Karate? Or what is real Quan Shu. For the record I don’t qualify as knowing much about Karatedo.

However, my favorite misconception that I see people buying hook line a sinker, is that in Okinaw, 400 years ago, people created a fist method that resembles exactly western style boxing with kicks.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Vash
Well, I've never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.

But, I've studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I'd love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I'm horrible at that kind of thing.

Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary.

Vash

I have a friend who is very a very good fighter (pratices Isshinryu karate) He has a lot of power and uses a lot of internal principles.

The mechanics of an internal puch will vary differently depending on the school of thought. But on a whole they are different from what my friend does in Isshinryu...how much who can say?

However being different hardly means better.....all said and done if my friend ever hit me it would probably knock my block off. In Taijiquan it's up to me to stay soft on the edge of his bubble so that doesn't happen.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I earned a black-belt in Yoshukai late '72... Taiji punches are uniquely effective given the years of training necessary to execute them correctly.. Tiffany Chen is among the best of the best at push-hands AND Lei Tai.. aside from that, she is a kind and gracious Lady..

As for the "Power of Taiji".. those that haven't experienced it, can't imagine it.. Those that have experienced it, need no further evidence.. and, dialogue between the two is confined by the experiences of participants..

One major issue is the necessary investment of Time required to raise Taiji to the level of combat proficiency.. those unwilling to invest the time will usually rationalize their own preferences.. those that have invested the Time feel threatened by the possibility (not probabability) that other styles may have comparable skills for less investment..

We shoot at the same target.. if we stay focused on the target and not the other guy's aim, we are more likely to hit it....

Be well....

[Vash]

Holy Crapple! Two reasoned, sensible responses. I think hell just froze over.

[backbreaker]

Well, the Andy Hug spinning back low kick is an awesome move whoever you are. Andy Hug would **** you up. I know no karate at all, so don't have much to say other than I have never felt the power of karate

Actually, I wouldn't think being a karate master means you know anything about Taiji or vice versa. They seem different to me actually, but a good low spinning back kick to the leg is a good thing in any art. I shouldn't even be talking about what I don't know.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

For those that aren't aware.. a thread by this same name exists in the main Kung Fu Forum.. 13 pages and growing.. some excellent dialogue (some not, me included.. my passion for the subject sometimes compromises my good-sense)..

Be well..