The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by delibandit
Taijiquan is the highest martial art there is, the top of the mountain. That's not meant to be a boastful statement or a put-down toward other arts. It certainly doesn't negate the effectiveness of other arts. A karate guy could certainly kick your ass. But, the principles of taijiquan make it superior to other arts. That being said, not all those who study TJQ will develop the level of skill necessary for self-defence or fighting.

Opinions vary on that. Ask a ba gua guy, or a xing I guy, or a lu he ba fa guy.

Hell, ask anyone who loves their chose art.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Actually its called the Supreme Pole and grand ultimate fist is a poor translation of it.

[scotty1]

Ask three practitioners of Taiji what 'taiji' means and they'll tell you three things, everyone swearing blind that they're right.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I have trained Wado-Ryu for 5 years now, and Yang style for 6 - with the same instructor, who in turn has trained with John Ding for about 8 years. There has been no problem in blending taiji into the karate - be clear it is a unidirectional of knowledge as there is nothing structural of benefit to take from karate into taiji (not a criticism of what there is - just an observation that it doesn't help taiji).

I train karate because I want to build strong external skill that I then internalise over time with taiji - this then improves my karate as well as my taiji. It also provides a different set of energies to train against using taiji principles - I fundamentally believe that once you train taiji, everything that you do has taiji within it. When I go through my kata, it is taiji that is driving it - so mechanically my punch is different to how the karateka do it. At the moment it probably isn't any harder, or faster, or 'better' in any measurable way. It just feels right for me. With time I may develop the sort of power that John or Ip generate - but that is worlds away from where I am at the moment.

Some great taiji masters have trained the external arts prior to (or with) their internal system - what I have drawn from them is that they did indeed perceive taiji (or any internal art) as 'higher', but that it had to come from a firm structural basis and understanding. Willie Lim once described it to a seminar I was at something like this:
"Taiji is like sculpting - if you start with a small amount of material then you can end up with a very small and delicate yet beautifully formed statue. With the external arts you ensure that you have more than enough material to create a much larger yet still perfectly formed statue". I'm probably doing him no credit with that precis but I drew a lot from his words. I drew even more from his skill and delicacy which I found fascinating. Seeing him this Friday actually so I'm very enthused

Application
The Karate I train (dunno about other styles) does a lot of work with application of kata, as well as boxing drills, fixed pairs work, locking etc. _All_ of which gives me useful information to take and apply within my taiji. If I go to an Escrima class I find parallels in movement and strategy that strengthen my taiji.

There is a fixed pairs piece in Karate where you basically make a high block to a punch at head height. A lot of the karate guys just bang their arm up and smash you out of the way, some of the others though are much softer and stick to your attack, guiding away with delicacy. They call this "rice hand" - stickiness. In turn I train my sticking ability in this pairs work - it provides a forum where I get a lot of external energy to practice with. In a taiji class everyone tries not to provide that energy because they are striving for something different. If someone tries to smack me in the mouth at a club, they aren't likely to be using internal energy. Ergo, it's quite useful to train against different energy...

By all means take your own path of purity where you only learn within one system - I am hopeful that it will bear fruit for you. What purpose is there in dismissing other arts that you have no experience of? What purpose is there in basing your assessments of other arts on the writings of a master? He might have been to a bad school, or he might have been so highly trained that he felt there was no value elsewhere. Are you that highly trained? Can you discount other sources of experience and knowledge? How many masters have historically trained completely alone, with no recourse to looking at other arts and testing themselves?

I guess I'm saying - before you swear to the superiority of your art, make sure it is your art that you are referring to, rather than that of your master.

Paul

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Hmmmm.... My own perspective of Taiji is.. a set of principles, trained and illustrated by detailed choreography of various styles (loosely associated with Taoist philosophy).. the purpose of which is varied according to the intent of the student and the preference of the instructor (martial, health, meditative).. primary principles are proper body mechanics, use of various internal organic and energy systems (some elusive).. and, an abiding awareness of our relationship to our environment... aside from that, opinion and predjudice distorts my perspective..

Be well...

[Vash]

Now Wadoryu is an example of a karate that ISN'T Okinawan.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[ShaolinWood]

delibandit great post, and Kaitain(UK) aswell!
Both have some excelent poits!

I have also studied Karate (Funakushi) for about 6 years, then went over to Shaolin and some other family style gongfu.
Then later started with Chen Taijiquan and have devoted myself to this style 100% since.

I still train my external gongfu and I'm sure that this DOES give me a good foundation for training and application understanding. Although I often ignore some of the external characteristics to replace it with that which I've learned in taiji.

Although getting into the "softness" of taiji and understanding hardness through softness, the karate background is a bit of a negative.
My one gongfu brother studied Shotokan for 11 years and he still struggles to completely flow and relax.

Though I mentioned this I still think the time you take to "forget" the hardness of Karate is less than the time you take to understand martial arts and all the basics.

And yes, I do know that there are levels of Karate which also uses characteristics similar to taijiquan, but unfortunately this seems to be almost lost in MOST schools and survives mainly still in Japan...

[Vash]

*coughOkinawankarateownsalloverJapanesederivatives ofsuchcough*

Buncha dam, durdy Tai Chi playin' hippies.

Hsing I pwns jou!

[Kaitain(UK)]

Maybe so Vash - but does yours?

[Vash]

iNDEED!

[backbreaker]

In xingyiquan they yell "YIIII"

In Taijiquan they yell " Ha!"

In karate they yell " Kiya!"

Interesting if nothing else. Also, I have not heard of xingyi fighting these days, only shuai chiao I hear is doing good, and there are afew Taiji fighters, I can think of one on this forum, but I know of no xinyi fighters.

[cerebus]

Anyone who's been in the North American Tang Shou Tao for more than a year has probably fought in at least one full-contact event. And where did you hear than Hsing-I people yell "Yiii"? We don't yell anything so far as I've ever seen.

[backbreaker]

In xinyiluihequan they yell "YIIII" in some moves. Obviously I am not familiar with every xingyi group, just saying what I have seen FWIW, and just because I hear alot of stuff like xingyi is effective for fighting, Taiji is for hippies. So it's not a rule

[8gates]

Ah.. a happy thread...

I almost started to ramble on and on..
but as usual I punched myself in the groin again..
and cut my happy statment down to a para' or 2.

I've been doing Shaolin Kempo for about 20+ years, and I can switch easily enough... from doing Shaolin Kempo to doing a Tai Chi movement then back to Shaolin Kempo again..
but to say "blending" two differn't styles together is kind of like saying " l@@k " a new MA ? isn't it? I don't know how to feel about that one....

I think external styles are good
to learn how to punch and kick ECT..
however Tai Chi is internal (in all ways) and is just plain differn't...
I think you can compare Karate punches to the way a Tai Chi Player punches ... but it's still not the same... if it was, I wouldn't have learned Shaolin Kempo.....

My 2 Cents

8 Gates

[Brad]

I think xinyiluihequan and xingyiquan are concidered different things