The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Empty Fist]

I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months. Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi. Anyway, I started reading a book called Moving Zen – One Man’s Journey to the Heart of Karate by CW Nicol. There is a passage in his book where he awoke from a deep sleep. The building that he was staying in Japan was shuddering, screens were rattling, and the floor beneath him was moving. At first he thought it was an earthquake. He got out of bed, and went downstairs and a bunch of Karatekas (including Donn Draegar, a famous Karateka) were watching a teacher of tai chi chuan punch the pillars of the house, his fist only moving a few inches at a time. All of them could not believe the deceptive power coming from this tai chi master (Mr. Wong). Mr. Wong could also withstand any blows to his body (except to the face). Mr. Wong was about 250 pounds and fifty years old. Several Karateka tried punching Mr. Wong’s stomach only to hurt their wrist. He also sent flying with a single push several Karateka all lined up in a row (all together weighed about 800 pounds). Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

[EarthDragon]

You said to get a better understanding of tai chi you took up shotokan? funakoshi's shotokan has nothing what so ever in common with tai chi chuan........... could you please explian this analogy, Im dying to hear this.

[Empty Fist]

I wanted to get a better understanding of striking, blocking, and kicks. Unfortunately, there are not many good schools around where I live as far as Tai Chi Chuan/Kung Fu is concerned. Took up Shotokan for several months to understand the basics (punches, kicks, blocks). Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan). FYI, Karate was known as “Chinese hand” before they changed it to mean “empty hand”.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
You said to get a better understanding of tai chi you took up shotokan? funakoshi's shotokan has nothing what so ever in common with tai chi chuan........... could you please explian this analogy, Im dying to hear this.

principles are common across several arts, so it's possible. Im muay thai, for example, we train a technique that a tai chi guy refers to as borrowing...

[Vash]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan).

Kinda sorta. Shotokan is a . . . variation on Shorinryu, and Okinawan karate, which was influenced mainly by white crane, monk fist, and possibly five ancestors.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months.

You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi.

No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

The difference between seemingly superhuman Taiji and run of the mill karate are training methods. Obviously, nobody gave the real beef to Nakayama.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by SevenStar
principles are common across several arts, so it's possible. Im muay thai, for example, we train a technique that a tai chi guy refers to as borrowing...

principles- similar. movement- wildly different. technique- COMPLETLEY different.

not really the same thing.

[Tiger_Yin]

The very essence and basis of both arts are so incompatible Funakoshi took everything out of Karate thta was actualy harmful and dangerous to make Shotokan kind of like to make a sport for kids.

Taichi has nothing to do with this.. i dont even see HOW u can say it compares o_O

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm shocked that someone would take karate to get a better grasp on Taijiquan. Think about it, Karate excersises ridgid, stiff attacks. Taijiquan is completly fluid. Karate for the most part is external, Taijiquan for the majority is internal (but there are Taiji instructors that teach the martial side too).

To compare the two is like apples and oranges.

[Vash]

When comparing anything to TCC, that thing is gonna appear stiff. But karate, when done properly, is neither rigid nor stiff.

There aren't any friggin straight lines in karate. Now it's all short arcs. Confuses the bejeebus outta me.

[CaptinPickAxe]

When comparing anything to TCC, that thing is gonna appear stiff

True.

Splashing Hands is fluid, though. Never stiff or rigid. The Small Cross form seems fluid like taiji ( a poor, underdeveloped taiji, but taiji none the less)

[Empty Fist]

A lot of posts and interesting answers. In my opinion, and people may disagree which is fine, Karate is a good art to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks. Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi if you ever get a chance. Pictures are worth a thousand words. As far as softness is concerned, Shotokan emphasizes relaxation to execute techniques. Only at the final moment of impact, the body is supposed to tense. Now if we talk about yielding, (a major principal of Tai Chi) then I agree. Karate does not really emphasize yielding. My only purpose of taking Karate for a short period of time was to get a better understanding of punches, kicks, and blocks. And let me burst the myth about karate punches lacking power, the body mechanics of a karate punch are the same as a tai chi punch.

Here is an example what I learned when I took karate. Karate’s rising block is exactly like fair lady works the shuttle. However, before I took karate, I had no clue how to execute this technique for self defense. I found out that the block, when done properly would be used to strike/block an opponent’s funny bone, thus numbing an opponent’s arm. Interesting stuff.

[Vash]

Please, do not get Shotokan and classical karate confused.

Oh, and "empty hand" had been used interchangedly with "Tang hand/China hand" previous to Funakoshi's popularization of the spelling.

[Royal Dragon]

the body mechanics of a karate punch are the same as a tai chi punch.

Reply]
Um sorry, but no. In Taiji Quan, the power is driven by an expansion/Contraction of the torso. It radiates out from the center in all directions.

In Karate, the leg drives the hip, which drives the torso. The power transfers from the hip, through the torso with NO addtion in useable power to the shoulders (Strong abs help in stability here), and finnally to the arms, which add power of thier own.

It's a COMPLETELY different method of power generation all together. One external by deffinition, the other purely internal.

You need a real teacher my freind.

I am like the video King, but I still go to real teahcers for corrections, basics and principals. It's the only way. You can't go to Karate, to learn about Taiji Quan. That's like going to a long distance runner to learn about swimming.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I wanted to get a better understanding of striking, blocking, and kicks. Unfortunately, there are not many good schools around where I live as far as Tai Chi Chuan/Kung Fu is concerned. Took up Shotokan for several months to understand the basics (punches, kicks, blocks). Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan). FYI, Karate was known as “Chinese hand” before they changed it to mean “empty hand”.

I have been training Yang style Taijiquan for a while now, and I disagree with what you are saying. I have never taken Shotokan karate, but I have a little over 3 years of Okinawan Ryukyu Kempo. There are internal and external aspects of the karate I took, and overall its really a great system. However when you stated about learning how to punch and kick and block to me, IMHO taiji does not concern itself which such ideas. Punching and kicking is not a major concern for taiji.

From what I have learned, taiji is more about controlling the yin and yang energies, not punching, kicking, blocking. In taiji you find many things you will not see in other systems. Things like plucking, pushing, warding off, and rolling back are somewhat unique to taiji. I am not saying taiji is the only system out there that does that, I am just saying its one that sticks out in my mind when thinking about that kind of stuff.

Um sorry, but no. In Taiji Quan, the power is driven by an expansion/Contraction of the torso. It radiates out from the center in all directions.

True, but taiji also generates power from the ground up, using the legs as well. In taiji you use your whole body as one unit not just the torso. The dan tien is just one of your options.

In Karate, the leg drives the hip, which drives the torso. The power transfers from the hip, through the torso with NO addtion in useable power to the shoulders (Strong abs help in stability here), and finnally to the arms, which add power of thier own.

Also not true. There are many forms of karate. The one style of karate I studied for 3 years also used the whole body and had internal aspects to it. It was a very comprehensive system with grappling and pressure point fighting as well. A lot of karate came from white crane kung fu, so there are going to be similarities here and there. Not to mention every master has changed the styles here and there to improve things along the way from hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

The thing about taiji, is that everything can be considered taiji. In taiji a step is considered a kick. Any body movement can be a strike, a ward off, a roll off, a push back, etc. Punching kicking and blocking are basic ideas in taiji, controlling the yin and yang energies it what one ultimately learns. If someone punches you let them, swallow it, side step it and split their energy, ward it off, or strike them first are all taiji principle answers in combat (not to metnion the countless others).

Do not limit yourself to the movements of forms and katas. All martial arts should be fluid, with smooth movements, not rigid predetermined strikes from forms or katas. There are many reasons for the movements in your form work, otherwise they would not be there. A taiji rule of thumb (not an exact number) says every move in the form has at least 40 applications. So you can see from that idea taiji does not limit itself to punching, kicking, and blocking.