The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[backbreaker]

Chen style Taiji has powerful strikes. I mean powerful. I'm not just saying this. My feeling is that the internal/external is getting out of control. Styles are not internal or external, the aspects of the systems are internal and external and most styles have both. But if you don't have internal, you don't have internal, but a good style will have both. My feeling is that Taiji and Karate are distant cousins, or else maybe the similarities are total coincidence.

[Gangsterfist]

I study yang style taiji, which is different, but I am not sure what the exact differences are. I don't train taiji as my main martial art. I blend it with my wing chun, which from a controlling perspective is actually quite genius IMHO. My lineage of wing chun always advocates to be nuetral, niether external or internal but neutral. Now on the high skill level there really is no external/internal. On a high skill level the martial artists is both internal and external. One will never be better than the other, they are just different. Tiger boxing is pretty external, taiji is pretty internal. On a high level of training and skill the practitioner would be both internal and external. By consequence when you learn one you ultimately learn both.

Hope that makes sense. This is my opinion after somewhat experience in karate, wing chun, taiji, judo, and some MMA type training.

[EarthDragon]

To clarify,
a block in martial arts terms is force on force, "not the dictionary term whoever used the websters" but it is done to stop an attack. But in regards to tai chi we do not neccesarly block. We redirect with our opponets force, not ours therefore not stopping the attack but rather opening up for our counter attack without using energy. it takes energy to block, this goes against tai chi priciples. So again you cannot train in shotokan to improve your tai chi.
Nor can you roller blade to improve your golf swing. although they both involve the body. do you see how silly this type of thinking is?

[Gangsterfist]

This argument is about apples and oranges, its all semantics.

[norther practitioner]

We redirect with our opponets force, not ours therefore not stopping the attack but rather opening up for our counter attack without using energy.

From what I understand, this differs from school to school. If you apply no force, then there energy will not be redirected....

[backbreaker]

Can white crane chin na, improve your understanding Wu or Yang style chin na?

Obviously ground fighting is only minimally beneficial to stand up. Or is it? Would wresting not improve a kickboxer? ( how bout san shou?). Some kickboxers are not particularly strong on inside fighting

[EarthDragon]

Dear nothern practioner,
while some stlyes may have slight differs in the execution they all are similar in content.

You said "If you apply no force, then there energy will not be redirected"not really sure what you mean here.

You must not apply force when using your opponets energy against them, this allows you to repel as they say 2000lbs with 4 ounces of energy. if you use your own energy to redirect it leaves less to counter with. This is just the opposite in karate, they use all the power in the block to mame or break the opponents limbs then counter when neccessary. This is why it is not proper to compare karate and tai chi to different animals indeed.

[norther practitioner]

I'm saying I'm not going to use a wet noodle to reinforce a bridge girder.

To redirect anything, there must be some force applied...

taiji..take the symbol.. there is always some yin in the yang, and always some yang within the yin....

I wouldn't put all taiji parries/blocks in with "hard blocks" but they are there... it isn't like the karate x-block... but I'm saying, you redirecting there energy, can, and is, by many termed as a block.

Physics dictates this, not ma style.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
This argument is about apples and oranges, its all semantics.

Argh. I'm glad I'm not an English major any more, lest I be forced to say something here.

[Royal Dragon]

Taking Karate to improve Taiji would work, IF you are taking it to understand it, so you can better figure out how to apply your Taiji against it. Or maybe to test, and practice if you already know how.

Any thoughts on my comment??

[bamboo_ leaf]

Physics dictates this, not ma style.

This would be true, if people where made of stone with no mind.
What your redirecting is their mind. Their body will follow.

Taking up anything else to enhance or supplement ones understanding of taiji is a recipe for misunderstanding.

If it is usage that is not understood practice more, and try it, a common saying (invest in loss) a good way to follow, big losses big gain, small loss small gain.

[Gangsterfist]

Whenever you attack someone you are extending your body and using force. There may be none or miminal tension when doing this, but its still force.

When doing push hands you are still extending your body and using force. If you were not using any force your arms would be limp like wet noodles. However, if you tense then more than likely your opponet is going to get the best of you. So you are using force, but with no tension. I have heard some sifus refer to this as intent.

For me, push hands was and still is pretty tough. I am so used to chi sao and always drilling into my opponet. Push hands is similar but just in different motions, and both are not using tension

[SPJ]

There are some punches and kicks in Chen's Tai Ji. It is called canon fist (Pao Tzwei). There are big swings of arms, however, you jerk or shake violently before hitting. These are missing in Yang's Tai Ji. When Pao Tzwei was first shown in Peking, everybody was supprised because everybody only knew Yang's Tai Ji. For the most part, it is still true today, because there are more Yang's Tai Ji students than Chen's.

Some definitions in Chinese martial arts:

Block (Fon) means to stop the movement of the force outright. for example, if somebody swings his arm up and then down to chop (Pi) your shoulder, you move forward half a step and raise your hand to stop him at a site above the elbow. You stop him altogether before he moves his arm down. That is a block or Fon.

Oftentimes, you only need to deflect the approaching arm or leg by introducing a small force laterally, upward or downward.

If you use a strong force horizontal to the opponent's force to stop him and also cripple him, it is called Lei. All the karate and taikwando hard "block" is actually strong Lei. In Tai Ji, you only need to use a small force but sudden enough to have the same effect.

Jade girl weaving (Yu Ni Zhuan So), Step forward seven stars (San Bu Chi Xing), and even Cross hands (Si Zi Sou). They are contact and deflect. They are not block. You rotate your forearm to contact, you use a small circular force to merge into a stronger linear force and guide it upwards and laterally. The main Jin is from your 2 hands forming a balance tension. As if your waist is the center of the ball, and your 2 feet and 2 hands are surface of the ball. All Tai Ji moves end with 2 hands go outward (Peng) at the same time. as if surface tension of a ball. This way it is defense and offense at the same time. The opponent's force may not enter the center of the ball, which is your chest/abdomen. The opponent is always bounced off the ball formed by your 2 hands and sometimes 2 feet, too.

[Repulsive Monkey]

As I say to a few posts back and what seems to be a few other learned types in here there is a distinction between blocking, which Taiji does not advocate, and using listening, sticking and following energies to deflect something. White Crane is in no way a block it is issuing of a rising Jin to dlfect, direct upwards. You need the sink to get the qi rising. Repulsive monkey is quite clearly contact and sticking with the back of the hand as it directs downwards drawing the opponents hand down with sinking jin, and naturally attacking with the flat palm forward, there is no block whatsoever in it.

Im sorry gangsterfist but on an aheived level Taiji is totally internal, not half internal half external.

Intent is meanigful direction of attention with the mind. Intent is the mind. Attacking someone with relaxed muscles is not intent.
The difference between wet noodle which is totally useless and sung and open, is that the two states of relaxtion has one (wet noodle) with the joints closed and cavities closed, and the other all muscles are relaxed but the joints are open the limbs are relaxed but extended.

By the way whoever said it it isn't intercept, parry and block, its intercept parry and chop and then punch. As I say there are no blocks in Taiji, you never stop the flow of movement of your opponent with force, everything is re-directed or deflected, and if you think this is semantically the same then you have a misunderstanding on a practical level.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

If you hold your forearm in front of you and parallel to the ground then raise it to "block" a downward chop.. you have a hard block..

If you hold your forearm in front of you and raise it at increasing angles approaching perpendicular to the ground (also twisting the waist), then you intercept and deflect a downward chop (white Crane spreads wings)..

In both instances you have prevented the intended harm.. the block requires "restarting" the energy flow (external), the intercept and deflect continues the flow of movement (internal)..

Yes, the Secret Society of North American Mouth Warriors will beat the flesh off this already dead and rotting Equine species.. we will choose to believe what we will.. who is right or wrong will be evident only at the crossing of hands.. "Faith without works is dead", believe what you will.. but test it and let the evidence show you the "way" (Tao)..

Be well...