Alan Orr NHB Wing Chun Clip

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...here we go again...but this time - no answering what doesn't have to be answered:

A) Since you offer no evidence why the downward elbow can be stopped other than to say it's impossible to do...I just simply rest my case again...

B) He got the single (somewhat) - but was jammed and his head was being forced down by Cheung's right palm...tried to turn to his left while attempting to lift the leg (and remember - by now he was starting to get hit in a vulnerable place)...picked it up off the floor just slightly as he tried to turn to his left...only managed to push Cheung back slightly and into the wall that was about two feet to Cheung's left...Why did it go in that direction?...Cheung was giving counter force to Mike's left turn with his left leg/foot - while pushing Mike's head in that direction with his right and chopping down on the back of Mike's had with his left hand ridge...

C) Now...about the brainwashing thing...Do I have to really?!..Oh well...

I'm around the man literally 20 years...Mike has been around me and Wm Cheung since 1989...We have both SEEN him NOT be fooled time and time again...and we have learned to a significant extent how not to be fooled also...by feints, distractions, etc...Is it perfect? NO...Is it the best radar system I've ever seen...Without a doubt...Is Cheug REALLY AMAZING at it - oh yeah...he (we) can do it against very fast feints and movements that precede fast jabs and hooks.(and succeed in stopping the punches or deflecting them by watching and attacking the elbow of the punching hand) - countless times...much harder to see than someone trying to disguise an entire shift of level to go for a takedown...that's no bull...I've READ both situations successfully time and again...

So now once again I'm going to ask you...Steve Ewing? Dale? Post the video of your fight so we can see what you know?...Instead of changing the subject...Okay?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Since you offer no evidence why the downward elbow can be stopped other than to say it's impossible to do...I just simply rest my case again...

The downward elbow strike is pretty much useless because the person in the mounted position will drop his hips down while grapevining his legs to maintain the mount, rather than raising up as you had thought. The basic idea is to clamp the hips down onto the opponent's body while posting out with the arms to maintain the top position. This pretty much hides and protects all the valuables down there. While you could possibly reach in and grab something with a hand, you can't access the groin with the elbow when this happens.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
He got the single (somewhat) - but was jammed and his head was being forced down by Cheung's right palm...tried to turn to his left while attempting to lift the leg (and remember - by now he was starting to get hit in a vulnerable place)...picked it up off the floor just slightly as he tried to turn to his left...only managed to push Cheung back slightly and into the wall that was about two feet to Cheung's left...Why did it go in that direction?...Cheung was giving counter force to Mike's left turn with his left leg/foot -

Once again, by this description of the takedown, someone didn't (or doesn't) know much about takedowns- for a couple of reasons:
1- A wrestler who can't secure the single will usually switch back to the double or move around to a high crotch.
2- Chueng is giving counter force to a circular motion to his (Cheung's) right with his left leg. Wow! He can defy the laws of physics. He could make a bunch of money teaching this single leg counter at Olympic wrestling training camps.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
(and succeed in stopping the punches or deflecting them by watching and attacking the elbow of the punching hand) - countless times...much harder to see than someone trying to disguise an entire shift of level to go for a takedown...that's no bull...

Really now? And how exactly is it that you think someone "disguises" thier level changes?

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So now once again I'm going to ask you...Steve Ewing? Dale? Post the video of your fight so we can see what you know?...Instead of changing the subject...Okay?

Ah, the old "post your fight videos" strategey. Seems to always come out whenever they get pizzed because they are are unable to debate about technical aspects in a knowledgeable manner and are at risk of being exposed in areas about which they are pretending to be more knowlegeable than they really are.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I've READ both situations successfully time and again...

Yeah, you probably have. The only problem is it is with your students who obviously have very limited wrestling experience.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale...Steve:


Just post the video. No more federal prosecutor routine trying to cross-examine people on the witness stand. Just come out of the shadows.................... and POST THE VIDEO.

[Knifefighter]

Hahaha... I already waste enough time here arguing with numbnutz like you. Not going to waste more time digitizing my fights and posting them to a server.

Want to have an intelligent debate about the technical aspects about things that I have an intimate knowledge of, such as wrestling takedonws? Great. Want to ***** and moan about me posting a video? Now you're the one wasting his time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Frank?...Steve Ewing?:

You mis-stated the situation with Wm Cheung - anyone can go back and re read the post and see that it was clear that Cheung was moving to his left - not his right....anyone can go back and reread the Connecting Wing Chunw/Grappling thread and see that you also changed the original scenario about the downward elbow strike...

Come on now...you're gonna bolt out of here that fast? You'll be fine - you're amoungst friends - you did wing chun back in the day - we understand that your instructor may not have been any good and you didn't learn anything valuable...But please - show us some of what you've got..We're all curious now?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You mis-stated the situation with Wm Cheung - anyone can go back and re read the post and see that it was clear that Cheung was moving to his left - not his right....

Then once again, this shows that someone was pretty clueless about takedowns. Working for a single on the right leg requires that the attacker step back and force the defender to the defender's right.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...anyone can go back and reread the Connecting Wing Chunw/Grappling thread and see that you also changed the original scenario about the downward elbow strike...

I believe you said you bumped the top guy up forcing him to plant his hands (as this was your original misguided attempt to apply the wristlock from the bottom). I believe you said that he raised up, allowing you to strike with the elbow which "never misses".

Yeah, that seems to be pretty much it. Here are some of your comments on landing the elbows:

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...Immediately after I bridged, turned, and threw him slightly over my right shoulder - he had no choice but to lift his groin up off my body in order to avoid being completely rolled...and as he began to post his left hand...

P.S. - It's almost impossible to "miss" with this move.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Stevie baby...Dale, dude...

I'm not going back into the confused replay with you....more facts as they were originally stated again were changed...no..no...

If you don't want to show your hand....fine.

Later,

[Ultimatewingchun]

So anyway...ah...Dhira (KWJ)...as I was saying...It's definitely best not to just rely on using striking technique to defend against takedowns - a healthy knowledge of sprawling, ****zers, and other grappling answers to takedowns is in order - not as a substitute to using moves like I described when discussing William Cheung - but in addition to them. Mistakes made by the grappler and sometimes just stealing the march with striking attacks and counter-attacks can also do the job - we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater...a well placed punch(es)elbow or palm strikes can sometimes end the takedown game very quickly.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

For some reason there's a censor on the word w_izzers...(h) is the missing letter.

[old jong]

What is a whi zzer?...Is it the same as a pancake?...

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys


You guys have moved onto new areas of debate, thats cool. I would like to just answer 'KenWingJitsu' and then rest.


KenWingJitsu posted:

'Alan, I think you're dissecting the corpse on hip pnching a tad too much. A punch is a punch. Allt his hip talk is boring and inconsequential. no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other, your takedown defense is the only thing that will defend tyou form takedowns. '

Reply:

Thats fine. But we all can talk of 100 ways to do things. The structure of what we do was what I was talking about. I understand that as you have not seen what I am referring to, therefore it will be hard to comment accurately.

KenWingJitsu


'Also as for the "my system of body puching is better than yours....." save it man. Thats Wing Chun BS and has no place in this kind of thread or video series. The best thing about this tape series is that you made it. Using it to promote your "lineage" will leave a bad taste in many mouths. I think you should focus more on the techniques you're teaching and how to overcome the many aspects of what could happen in a mixed fight.'

Reply:

Firstly. I never actually said that. I was just explaining that we are different in application of Structure and method than other Wing Chun systems most of you guys have seen. Also I have said more than once, this is only my opinion. I have also said already that lineage is not what I am talking about. I even quoted my teachers moto ' let function rule over form'.

As we focus on structure rather than techniques, the function of structure is my guide to my technique.

I thought I should just clear that up.

My best to you all

Alan

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for your answers Alan.

I would disagree on this... a good boxer has a good root too, and not a 'high centred hip power'. Sure the infamous 'good grappler' should be able to take the boxer down, but a 'good boxer' is no pushover. In fact given how flat-footed and stationary most of the WCers I've met are, I would say they are much easier to take down and have a much more dead root (if one at all).

But I was actually trying to agree with you about the hip-root connection, and was asking more about the use of the hips Aaron was talking about to pin someone on the floor. I appreciate this is a difficult concept to explain, so I may just have to :shrug: and keep training!!! but it interested me.

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, note I didnt say strikes cannot stop takedowns....I already know they can. But...what i said was "
no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other,"...meaning yes strikes can stop a takedown, but...no one way is better sinply because you use your hip or sink youre root or whatever.....

Mike drove him back against the wall - but was almost knocked out (and clearly getting the worst of it) when GM Cheung decided to stop

As for this, I would have loved to see it, but as far as I am concerned, being driven into a wall is a failure of stopping the takedown, you dont know (unless you were Mike) that he was "almost knocked out". They should have kept going till either the knockout or the takedown. I have seen similar attempts at full contact & full speed. The 'striker was driven back and was taken down...even when it was elbows being used to the same area behind the skull. I have tape of it :-)

Secondly, stopping a takedown AFTER INITIATION of the takedown is easy! (well easier lol) because you're waiting for it. personally I like the Jum sao to the brachial nerve of the neck/ collar bone when i'm "ready" for a takedown. I was talking about punching/chain punching or flurrying. When you are punching and he decides to take you down after YOU begin punching, it's a whole different ballgame...no strike will stop a duck under to a takedon...perhaps a perfectly timed knee might slow it down, but the thing that will stop it is a simple sprawl...

Alan,
I have actually seen what you are referring to although not in tis tape series. i have seen your body structure sparring series which i did like. i didnt see all the tapes, but I liked most of what i saw. One thing I did like was the lack of "lineage" and "my system of wing chun blah blah blah..." and the lack of chi-sao. made me think...here's someone who gets it; chi-sao isnt going to get you ready to spar....sparring will. If this series is along the same lines, I will probably like it almost as much, but I did wince when I saw the chi-sao section in the clip.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira (KenWingJitsu):

Firstly...Mike told me in the car on the way home that night that he was losing the battle and was beginning to fear for his safety when William Cheung hit him the third time...he had no confidence at that point that he'd be able to take him down and no confidence that he'd stop the knockout if William decided to continue hitting him...

Secondly...about the wall...it was to the left of William Cheung - about perhaps 2, - maybe 2.5 feet. The action drove William Cheung backward perhaps a foot or two - but mostly it drove him to his left...which meant that his right foot and his back was braced against the wall (actually helping him) when the final part of the encounter occurred...

So my take on it was that he won a victory, so to speak, but not a decisive one, because in this instance the wall helped him...without the wall - who knows?

Now I've seen other instances involving similar techniques he's taught...variations on the same theme using rear elbow strikes for example while using the front hand to pull the head of the opponent forward and down into the elbow that work well and decisively... but my original point was - before we got sidetracked - that I basically agree with what you just said on your last post:

Striking against takedowns can work in some instances but is not high percentage stuff - as you said - stopping a takedown AFTER INITIATION is easier (than strikes) because you're waiting for it...as you put it - "When you are punching and he decides to take you down after YOU begin punching...it's a whole different ballgame - no strike will stop a duck under to a takedown...but the thing that will stop it is a simple sprawl."

I agree with this completely.

[reneritchie]

Dhira, fwiw, Robert's method for punching, and for WCK in general, is different in kind from just about everything else I've seen. To put it in simple terms, while most WCK plays a fast and loose, shrimping game, he's playing a smashing, bridging game. 'better' and 'worse' are individualistic things, and different things will suit different people (and I personally believe there can be different things that are good--not everything good has to be the same). This is just different. I haven't seen the NHB DVD, but Alan is teaching his version of an aspect of this on the sparring tapes.

Old Jong - ****zer is a wrestling term, like underhook or armdrag. In judo, it would be like taking your right arm, putting it around and underneath someone's left arm (while facing them), reaching through under their armpit, and grabbing their lapel (typical setup for a cross-like choke).