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[John Dufresne]

Bluesman,

I totally agree!!!!

[Evad]

Originally posted by Bluesman
Sifu John,
You have made an observation that escapes most schools. To have a large school you have to cater to what most want which is not what most instructors want. It is more of a commitment then the majority of the population will give. So you have to lower your standards or have smaller classes. Of course a good teacher can inspire the students to achieve to their potential but most have what they think is a life and will only devote a set amount of time to practice. Make class too hard and you will lose some students, too easy and you cheat others.
I had a small club in the mid/late '80s and offered to teach for free a class on Saturdays that would involve conditioning and going over the basics. Out of my 23 students only one showed up. The others did not want to give up their Saturday mornings.
I did not care for English class untill I met this one English teacher that made it fun. I even studied!!! If you are giving the majority of students what they want, lose weight, get a cardio work out, socializing etc. then you are giving to them what they expect. Maybe the best instructors give what the students expect and then push them further by making it fun.

I completely agree as well, you said in less words what took me a large post to say

[Bluesman]

JP,
I remember teaching a class that had two guys in it about the same age. One had been on the football and basketball teams, a natural athlete. He picked things up quickly. I had thought that this is a student that every instructor hoped for.
The other guy was skinny and found it very difficult to move his legs and arms at the same time. Thought he would not make through his free month of class. Boy was I wrong about the two of them.
At the end of the first year, the athlete was still better but not nearly as much. The other guy worked his butt off and was one of the better students in class. By the end of the second year he was the best in his class.

[John Dufresne]

"The good will become bad and the bad will become good"

[The Willow Sword]

[QUOTE]Does this tick you off? I don't care. They have not shown themselves ready to be students yet.

"Oh i see so walking in the door paying the tuition,expressing thier desire to train there and put up with your ego isnt worthy enough to be considered a student?(pfffft) and just for your info a "customer" is valued in a buisness, in ANY other buisness setting a "Customer" isnt seen as not worthy enough to puechase something because HE hasnt spent enough time in the buisness"

{Quote}I spend a lot of time turning them from customers into students, though. And for $30 a month, it really doesn't take that much to be a customer. Being a customer is not a bad thing ..... 80% of our students are 'customers.'

"Here we go again with your inflated view of yourself and your school with this "customer being turned into a "student" thing.
and you tell these people right up front that you view them as such? i find it sad that most of the people in this country are viewed and view themselves as a "paying customer" rather than a human being. so your screwed up image of a $ sign on thier face dissapates after they attain black?"

"
{quote}"A lot of the training at blackbelt and higher would run off most of our customers. For example, the first time they felt the sting of the 'rope' against their back in our weight jacket training class and they would hit the door. Our iron shin training would run off the remaining bit"

What is your point? Since they are customers and not worthy of such "training" why even bring this up? Do you even know the stupidity of what you are typing Meecer? But hey ,who am i to tell you how you should view your STUDENTS. But more people are going to read this as many frequent these boards and your approach to the people expressing thier interest in learning what YOU have to offer(and you dont have much i'll tell you that) will turn your potential "Customers" away.
And besides ,this forum regards what you study as a bunch of cr@p anyway. So you are reduced to having "customers" who are ignorant of certain aspects of your organization and will flow through your doors like sh!t through a goose.
30 bucks a month eh? thats about all you CAN charge for what YOU personally teach.




TWS

[MasterKiller]

Congrats on 1,000 posts, TWS....again.

[The Willow Sword]

1001

[themeecer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Willow Sword
[B]

Oh i see so walking in the door paying the tuition,expressing thier desire to train there and put up with your ego isnt worthy enough to be considered a student?

What I said was not egotistical, it was realistic. Most people never become students (black belts). Walking up to the door and paying 'tuition' does not deem them worthy enough to be a student yet.

(pfffft) and just for your info a "customer" is valued in a buisness, in ANY other buisness setting a "Customer" isnt seen as not worthy enough to puechase something because HE hasnt spent enough time in the buisness"

I never said a customer wasn't valued. I simply said they are not considered students yet.

"Here we go again with your inflated view of yourself and your school with this "customer being turned into a "student" thing.
and you tell these people right up front that you view them as such? i find it sad that most of the people in this country are viewed and view themselves as a "paying customer" rather than a human being. so your screwed up image of a $ sign on thier face dissapates after they attain black?"

That is not in inflated view of myself nor of my school. And like I said, I do say this to their face. I want to speak to the ones who want to prove me wrong, I want them to be like "By durn .. I'll show him, I'm going to become a student!!" I love that. I am their sensei first, then their friend. I am not going to hold their hand and tell them they are something they are not yet. I build them up, yes. I praise every instance of improvement I see.

This cuts both ways. If one of our customers compliments my skill, I can simply say I am merely a student. I have hardly even scratched the surface.

Last night I had some of our brownbelt customers reading this thread and they got a kick out of it. These 'poor oppressed customers' understand the concept that you have no ability to grasp. And let me tell you, these brownbelt customers are going to make some dang fine students soon, they are already some very fine customers.

And let me repeat, since you have either missed it or ignored it, I don't see dollar signs when I look at customers. I don't make a single penny from teaching.

What is your point? Since they are customers and not worthy of such "training" why even bring this up? Do you even know the stupidity of what you are typing Meecer?

Why do I bring this up? To demonstrate to you the difference between a student and a customer. When they are ready to tackle these harder obstacles, they finally become a student.

But hey ,who am i to tell you how you should view your STUDENTS.

The smartest thing you have said on this thread.

A final note we also use the word disciple interchangeably at our school for student. This should demonstrate our reasoning of not throwing the word student around loosely for everyone who walks in the door.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by themeecer
A final note we also use the word disciple interchangeably at our school for student. This should demonstrate our reasoning of not throwing the word student around loosely for everyone who walks in the door.

Do you have a ceremony, or do you just use the term?

[Judge Pen]

Ther ceremony is the test and a sash and certificate presentation.

TWS, Chris, you two will not agree on this. The disagreement is the symantics of the word "customer." Just let it go, I think we all understand the points you are both making.

[themeecer]

When they 'become students/disciples?" Not really. We recognize them formally in class and from then on they sit with all the black belts facing all the colored belts. A ceremony would be nice though.

I do need to make a note.... it is not like I say to a group of people ... "You customers do all your short forms." I actually call them students at this time. So at times I flip back and forth with my terminology. But they do realize we don't really consider them true students till they are black belts.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
TWS, Chris, you two will not agree on this. The disagreement is the symantics of the word "customer." Just let it go, I think we all understand the points you are both making.

I agree.

[Ralphie]

I've never heard it before with SD, but do you guys really use the term sensei for the instructors?
There were some good people that I met at SD that were black belts. There were also a large amount of ****s with low self esteem, who would run over to fight the white belts and girls during sparring. Then they would talk crap for 2 hours, and leave. Total time working out was about 10 minutes.

[themeecer]

We do. I don't think you are a good authority to comment on what SD schools typically do, Ralphie, after your horror story of the sparring match where the one had to be resuscitated and the other had to get a steel plate in their head. I don't understand why any blackbelt would want to run over and spar the white belts or the girls. (Well maybe if the girls were hot.) I had always heard there were some big differences between the west coast and east coast schools.

Edit: Let me make a big edit here. I didn't mean to make it sound like I believed this type of behavior was the norm for the west coast schools. I totally don't believe that. I am simply saying that Ralphie has unfortunately seen some bad things that I have never seen at one of our schools.

[CaptinPickAxe]

don't see any SDer saying anywhere that they don't treat customers as potential students. The two are not mutually exclusive. Most places are VERY good to their customers, offering them as much for their money as possible to encourage their return. But, make no mistake, in shaolin-do everything picks up after black and to get to black you have to meet some requirements. Sorry if that shatters your image of SD as some money raking scam, but that's been my experience.

Sorry, Radh. But your account doesn't affect my view as much as you think it does. I was an SDer. I have my own views on it and nobody will change them. From paying over $70 dollars a month to learn pretty much nothing to going to free classes where I learn one of the most devestating arts. I learned about the truth in SD's marketing. You have this little idea that when you say something, I instantly change my view because your story is different. Thats not the way it works. I'll have to see a white buffalo from shaolin-do before my views change. So quit acting so pivotal...