There is no one corrrect way!!!

[Miles Teg]

I would just like to bring this up in light of the many recent posts regarding mma wing chun and several others. What I think we have all noticed is that there are several warring schools of thought in each of the threads and they usually involve the same people. Its easy to see both points of view. I have tried to bring this up before with little success (due to my own lack of skill in explaining myself). Im hoping I may do a better job this time around. The meat of what I want to say is:

ALL WING CHUN WAS NOT BORN EQUAL

This is a sensitive issue with people but it need not be. Ive noticed on many of these posts that people stay well clear of bringing differences up which is admirable. But lets face it there are huge difference in the way we train and what we are trying to accomplish from our training.

This doesn�ft mean: CERTAIN WING CHUN SCHOOLS ARE INFERIOR OR SUPPERIOR TO OTHERS.
But lets not avoid the issue that there are definitely huge differences.

Internal verses external debates always end up frustrating people and such debates often end up with the tune of �gthere is no such thing as internal and external�h. OK that�fs fine. But can we at least say that certain schools have an internal focus and others an external? There is definitely a huge difference here and it comes down to what people are aiming for in the first place. To give people some perspective lets give 2 extreme example of fighting arts: Tai Chi and Kick boxing. Both have the potential to produce excellent fighters with terrific skills. However, both have different learning curves and both have different goals in mind.

I think it is important to respect what each others motives and goals are, and realise that whatever they are we will achieve them on the current path we are on.
Different w.c schools/lineages have a different flavour. Having participated in another W.C school and having seen many wing chun schools I have come to the opinion that almost every wing chun school has something that other Wing Chun schools do not have. Some Wing Chun schools are more concerned with exact positioning of limbs for techniques and high physical fitness to express their techniques. Other schools are not concerned so much with this hand positioning and speed but the intent and mind focus behind it. I currently subscribe to the second but I realise there are draw backs to it. One of which, being the lack of emphasis on physical fitness.
However, its important that we respect each others motives. Looking at the William Cheung camp on this forum, videos, and online clips of him (for example), you can see that the focus is on a very physical expression of Wing Chun. Look at Chu Shong Tins and it is not so physical but very powerful.
All Im saying is that I think the core of our disputes are caused by what we think wing chun should be. When in reality, wing chun has so many different interpretations that we are often comparing apples to oranges.

What do you think?
What are your personal motivations for doing W.C?
What does your interpretation of Wing Chun mean for you?

[yuanfen]

Good post Miles.

At certain points- discussions go around circles on the net-
partly because of lack of nuances in the medium, need for brevity,
widespread anonymity , the great diversity in how lineages do things- even very basic things- plus the easy temptation for ad hominem comments.

joy

[Ernie]

miles

honest view and honest question

so honest answer

I don't buy into any of the lineage stuff , just cause one guy is good doesn't mean anyone else is most just ride the wave

second just cause that interpretation of wing chun worked for that particular head of the lineage doesn't mean it will work for you , everybody is different and they come to the table with there own strengths and weakness .
to blindly follow a lineage is just silly . so who cares if all wing chun is created equal or not . people are not created equal
there in lies the problem . and people would rather ride the wave of some one else's fame or knowledge then to accept themselves and take responsibility for there growth

as for the physical to the internal[ mental ]

I see them as two doors to be fully rounded you must walk through them both

it's easier to go through the physical door first , things are louder and bigger and easier to pick up on

but to be able to not be empty with you action and really become efficient you need to pass through the mental and emotional door . to be honest with your self , learn control and release of your energy .

the last door is the spiritual door , but I honestly have not gone that way , having to much fun with the other doors


which leads to what I want from wing chun

simple to improve and develop my attributes for combative purposes

it has to work for me under pressure , it has to make sense everything i train should transfer over to combative application
it has to address my personal strengths and weakness , offer me solutions ways of building my platform , not just an imitation of my teacher or lineage .
it must be flexable , and aptable and natural nothing fixed or robotic

it should fit seamlessly against any opponent or style i face , not just be a structural bumper car with hands pumping wildly like pistons

off the top of my head this is what i'm looking for and have found

[quiet man]

Good questions.

I can't answer just yet what are my personal motivations for doing wing chun (still pondering), but I can say what I seek in wing chun before any other thing: combat effectiveness. If a knife isn't sharp, than I don't care how jeweled or how ornamented it is, it just doesn't cut it (forgive the bad pun ). So, in order to get something more out of a martial art (i.e. on a 'spiritual' level, how ever wide a notion that may be), first I have to get the first and foremost - it works in combat, or it doesn't work at all. And I have found that in the WSL way...

[Gangsterfist]

Wing chun is a beautiful horse, but only a few can ride her

I have seen that quote on someone's sig, and it really sticks to me. If a wing chun practitioner loses a fight to a Tae Kwon Do practitioner is his wing chun inferior? No, the TKD guy was just a better fighter.

Style or lineage only takes a person so far. Most of it depends on the individual. How they train themselves outside of wing chun such as conditioning, endurance, strength, intentions, ambitions, so on and so forth. Don't use your lineage as a crutch, because you cannot rely on what you do not train for. A good fighter realizes that there is no definate answer in fighting equations, so you better prepare yourself for everything that could possibly happen.

Just my $0.02

[PaulH]

G-man,

I just love the way you put it down in writing! Ha! Ha! So I will offer you my Mad Hat's cup of tea for enjoyment in kind.

To begin with, why do people worry so much about their strange dream? What is the connection between dream and reality? One way to look at this is perhaps dream is the shadow of things to come. Likewise, WC theories, formulas, or kuits can be viewed as the shadows of some actual combats or fighting experience from the past. When one is talking about theories, he is like a 2-D man who can only see the menacing shadows moving back and forth in his plane of understanding. He has not experienced the 3-D aspects of his theories. Theories by themselves are neither right nor wrong when used to explain the unknown terrors. They are but hints and wisdom to guide you in a new kind of dimensional experience. The Shadow knows! Heed his warnings! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[Miles Teg]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Ernie here are some of my views on what you said.

�hI don't buy into any of the lineage stuff , just cause one guy is good doesn't mean anyone else is most just ride the wave�h

No matter what lineage or school you practice, the reason people train where they train is because they want to adopt attributes that their teachers or seniors have. From what Ive seen different lineages often DO train for different attributes. In your case you have seen how effectively your teacher can apply his fighting knowledge in a fight. In my case, other skills that my teacher and seniors have, interest me the most. I haven�ft seen it applied to a fight but Ive seen the power it can produce which is what juices me the most.
I don�ft think many people follow blindly. You train in a school and if you start to see results that show your skills are improving then you stick with it. You wouldn�ft have stayed with your teacher if you couldn�ft gain and improve skills and neither would anyone on this forum.

�hsecond just cause that interpretation of wing chun worked for that particular head of the lineage doesn't mean it will work for you , everybody is different and they come to the table with there own strengths and weakness �g.
I agree and personal character plays a big role. Some people are not cut out for certain approaches and some are. We eventually find something that is ideally suited to us. I think we have all walked down this path, before finding what really interests us.

�hto blindly follow a lineage is just silly . so who cares if all wing chun is created equal or not . people are not created equal there in lies the problem . and people would rather ride the wave of some one else's fame or knowledge then to accept themselves and take responsibility for there growth�h

As I said I don�ft think many people blindly follow a lineage. People see something to aim for in their teachers and try to get there. If it doesn�ft work out that way, they quit and look for something else. If there are people who blindly follow, I don�ft think they follow for very long before moving on. We all want to improve and if its not happening well�c�c�c�c..

�hwhich leads to what I want from wing chun
simple to improve and develop my attributes for combative purposes�h

Great!! This is the core of what I mean. These are YOUR motivations. Not necessarily every ones. Your, mine and everyone elses motivations set us out on a different path from the very beginning.

�hoff the top of my head this is what i'm looking for and have found�h

And this is what you will continue to find because it�fs the core motivation of what you train for. Good for you for finding your path and good for the person who wants to develop their W.C for different purposes for finding their path.

[Ernie]

miles
i would agree with you about the whole linage thing except experience keeps proving it other wise

i keep running it to guys that have trained 10 ,15 ,20 years
we work out and they just sit there dumb founded
alot of what they thought would work just doesn't

this has been happining alot to me this last year

these guys had total faith in what they had learned

you could see the heart break in there eyes when it doesn't
they are good honest people

but they followed blindly and never stepped out of there comfot zone

the one that really tripped me out was a sifu who had 24 years and a school i worked out with and a few of the 3 and 4 year students at our place and he got completely shut down

man i have never seen anyone just become so demoralized before

and this guy is teaching

i don't know maybe it has just been the current wave of people that have come my way perhaps next year i will be the one questioning everything ,
oh wait i do that now

but honestly this is why i'm not a big fan of wing chun training only with wing chun
all of these guys were very trained in that fashion

but like i said i'm a baby compared to many on this forum time will be my teacher

speaking of a teacher i have never been a follower of any teacher i train with specialist , gary for wing chun , others for different things and then my own personal research and development

i would never just follow one man or one school or one train of thought

but that's just me

[Ernie]

miles
in reading your reply once again something came to mind

reasons for training ,

in the begining it was to unlock the puzzle that is wing chun
it just amazed me all these idea's and concepts so different then anything else


then once i understood the motions it was all about attributes and application

but now that i have to teach
it's about expressing and reaching people

so even i can evolve i guess

[Mckind13]

Hey all

I think...

In choosing a teacher you must pick someone who speaks to your purpose for training and who conveys the art in a way you can understand. Martial arts are not secret or a mystery, if they seem to be after a few years of constant study then maybe you are following the wrong path.

I think you cannot follow your Sifu for too long. I am a student of Robert Chu. He is one of the best teachers and martial arts I have ever met and yet I have struck out on my own to explore grappling, FMA, Boxing and Kickboxing. This has done lots for me. Proven the validity of what I have learned, shown me personal weaknesses and that I have grown enough in my time under Sifu Chu and in my own self discovery to be able to adapt, change and overcome challenges.

In applying your art it must flow. Wing Chun does not stop when we land on the grown or when I pick up a stick. The Wing Chun that flows from me applies itself in everything. If it is not continuous it cannot be dynamic and change to fit the situation.

All training for me is awareness training

So there is one best art, mine.
But it is only best for me.

David

[Ernie]

nuff respect david
liked that post


still got to hook man

[Gangsterfist]

When one is talking about theories, he is like a 2-D man who can only see the menacing shadows moving back and forth in his plane of understanding. He has not experienced the 3-D aspects of his theories. Theories by themselves are neither right nor wrong when used to explain the unknown terrors. They are but hints and wisdom to guide you in a new kind of dimensional experience.

When I think of what wing chun teaches you, I think of little ideas. I see wing chun as an idea builder. You will never know the exact answer to the problem in a combat situation, but wing chun can give you a really good idea of what that answer is. When I practice my taan sao, pak sao, gaan sao, bong sao, etc. I am not practicing or training set movements. I am training ideas, and building energies and motions that can be used in countless different ways.

Now, after I train these motions and energies and take them out of the lab (ie forms and chi sao) and into the sparring/combat world. Which is completely different. Sometimes biu saos and taan saos just do not work, you must realize this. I can't tell you how many wing chun people out there think a taan sao is a definate answer to a straight punch. The fact is, its really not. Its a good answer, but not definate and infact if you are fighting someone trained, its better off to just pak or angle step it.

In choosing a teacher you must pick someone who speaks to your purpose for training and who conveys the art in a way you can understand. Martial arts are not secret or a mystery, if they seem to be after a few years of constant study then maybe you are following the wrong path.

Yup, I agree. Do not kid yourself. Your goals from training kung fu should be similiar to your sifu's. My sifu is a good fighter. I have seen him fight before. He went to a concert with us one time and a fight broke out. I saw him handle 5 guys no problem. He didn't beat the holy crap out of them or anything. He just handled them, and did not get hit once. When I saw him do this, and heard he was going to start teaching I wanted to join right away. He teaches us ground fighting, long range fighting and weapons. Things outside of wing chun. This is very important to me because if I ever get into a fight or a situation more than likely I am not going to be fighting another martial artist that takes wing chun. If you get too much into it and don't practice outside your art, you are fighting an art and not a person. Which is another view I have always had about MA. When you get in fights, you do not fight systems, lineages, or styles, you are fighting a person.

So there is one best art, mine.
But it is only best for me.

Man, I am stealing that quote. When I spar some people who train hung gar and 5 animals of shaolin I am mezmorized about how the crane postures and such look. They are very graceful. However, to me I find it to be ineffective and not effecient in real combat.