Switching from wing chun to hsingi

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
In My WC all the stances I use are basic derivations of YGKYM, which is to say that they share the same fundamental properties namely

Fair enough. I can't say that about mine. When I started sure: now they've evolved so though I'm using the principles of YGKYM it's more to supplement my natural way of moving and fighting... eg...

- Head up

I don't hold with keeping my head up all the time in WC or any other kind of fighting. I don't even hold with the theory that's sometimes popular with wingchunners that in some way it wrecks your energy generation/root/fill-in-the-blank to sometimes put you head down. What does wreck your energy generation/root/f-i-t-b is getting a big fat punch in the head because you didn't move it!

If we take YGKYM (I'm gonna call it the Y stance cos it's quicker for me to type and I'm busy!) and slt, you are practising sinking your centre of balance and centre of gravity in a seemingly static manner. So, when you punch you are practising punching with just your lats, delts and tricep/biceps action, with as much relaxation as poss in the other muscles. It also trains you to be able to breathe normally in a hard stance while moving your arms. It also trains the thigh, stomach, knee and pelvic floor muscles.

However, if you look at opening and closing the stance, the outwards/inwards movement to get into Y-stance, you are practising knee-locking/uprooting techniques, rooting through the bubbling well and the heel, and opening and closing the qua (if you don't wanna get mystical like I don't, this amounts to relaxing the muscles in your waist and practising pulling and sinking down by rolling your outer butt muscles out rather than forcing your knees in to the detriment of your knees' health, plus 'cupping' to the floor: pulling down to root by using simple leverage of your foot/toe muscles in a sideways and slightly rocking motion...).

Thus you have the root practice for the kicks which come in chum kiu, plus the fluid and relaxed waist for the turns in chum kiu, not to mention a tech in itself (the knee lock-outs)... which also resurfaces in the huen bo and man/jum sequences in biu jee.

Even keeping low and level in the opening of the Y-stance for slt, you have to some degree a vertical rippling movement going up and down the spine as you settle into the root, from the perineum up to the top of the head as it assumes its characteristic thread-pulling-from-the-heavens upwards position. this is also found to a larger degree in standing postures like the five and six hand chikung sets in yang style taichi, and the opening of the long form, plus large bear stretches his back and python prepares to strike.

This miniscule movement is what provides the basis for the natural walking kicks in WC and the power in all those daft seemingly arms-only strikes. It is also what helps you absorb strikes by rolling with them, and by correctly rolling you head up/down or to the sides, it even helps you to 'load' for eg the bounce punch/upcut from ck and many other upward/downward strikes.

So by tucking the head, a la principles from the Y-stance, you can protect it from strikes to some extent, and use the motion to follow on to your next strike.

While this is using a principle from the Y-stance, in my WC it's a bit of a big stretch or even misleading to say that I'm 'working out of the Y-stance' as was Buddy's initial assertion.

- Back straight

See above! Fighting with your back completely straight at all times is restricting your movement in the vertical plane. Any straight punches coming from twisting your waist horizontally are fine, any upcuts, downward crushing palms like in po pai/any jum sao, are not going to have any power.

- Pelvis pushed up and forward

I would say tilted, I certainly wouldn't say pushed up or forward, otherwise you're stopping the power of your punches at your waist.

-Centre of Gravity centrally distributed

I'm not gonna go there! It's always been a big debate in WC, but since my lineage is all chewed up, and people with a pristine lineage don't tend to listen to logic ( half j/k!) just suffice it to say that if you mean weight evenly balanced on both feet, I disagree, and if you mean that at some times you don't want your centre of gravity to be off centre, I wanna fight you... you'll be a pushover!!!

-at least one foot (i.e. the rear foot) turned inward/inverted

If I start in the Y, and without moving my right leg, turn to my left (as in ck and bj), moving my left foot ninety degrees and out towards my left, I'm in a stance with my left foot forward and at forty-five degrees and my right (back) foot also at forty-five degrees... OUTWARDS.

On another note I have just started Chen Taiji So Ill let you know how I get on

Cool, please do!

I can't give anyone an update on my internals class, cos my American army footballer wrestling partner pulled all the shoulder muscles in my right shoulder in a neck lock, so I'm ****ed.

Whatever it was got better by last Thursday, then twanged out again on Saturday running with a backpack, so I'm hoping it's better again by next class (next Saturday).

[black and blue]

You mentioned that your H-I instructor also teaches/mixes Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I have the opportunity to learn this... well, something very similar (Takeda-Ryu aikijutsu)... have anything interesting to share about these arts?

I'm sure you've had exposure to them

Cheers

Duncan

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Mat! thanks for the long considered reply

Originally posted by Mat
Fair enough. I can't say that about mine. When I started sure: now they've evolved so though I'm using the principles of YGKYM it's more to supplement my natural way of moving and fighting

This strikes me as a classic case of putting the cart before the horse! The salient point is this: You should train YGKYM so that it becomes your natural way of moving and fighting. My instructor has been in WC for close to 35 years and I see YGKYM in everything he does!!

Originally posted by Mat

I don't hold with keeping my head up all the time in WC or any other kind of fighting. I don't even hold with the theory that's sometimes popular with wingchunners that in some way it wrecks your energy generation/root/fill-in-the-blank to sometimes put you head down. What does wreck your energy generation/root/f-i-t-b is getting a big fat punch in the head because you didn't move it!

To me, the situation you describe is a Bil Gee scenario. I.E. I've made a mistake; Im going to get hit/I am getting hit- what can I do to minimise my losses? And yes there are situations where you might do this (what you suggest). However to me WC is like chess in that you have to think more than one move ahead. Yes by ducking you may avoid the first attack but what about the next? Conversley by being upright with your head up and your weight centrally distributed you are in a 'golden mean' or 'goldilocks' position i.e. you can move with equal ease in any direction.

Originally posted by Mat

If we take YGKYM (I'm gonna call it the Y stance cos it's quicker for me to type and I'm busy!) and slt, you are practising sinking your centre of balance and centre of gravity in a seemingly static manner. So, when you punch you are practising punching with just your lats, delts and tricep/biceps action, with as much relaxation as poss in the other muscles. It also trains you to be able to breathe normally in a hard stance while moving your arms. It also trains the thigh, stomach, knee and pelvic floor muscles.

As I see it the fundamental point about YGKYM is that it establishs a 'facing' position. And this is important because WC is about (in the main, although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Moreover by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack. This, combined with the tactile reflexes developed by CHI Sau is what gives the WC player a strategic edge.

Continued....................

[black and blue]

Interesting posts, guys.

As a side note, the Hsing-I I learn seems very much against front-facing.

When we engage, we attack the centre but the striking limb hits target and the other shoulder turns back - not so much that the shoulder is is direct line with the shoulder of the attacking limb, but nonetheless is turned.

As one goes forward, as it were, the other goes back... adding to further power. I guess it is a demonstration of how the whole body is more integrated than in my Wing Chun. Everything moves for the strike: both hands/arms/shoulders, the hips and waist, the knees/legs.

Until I could get this to work smoothly, Beng Chuan (my BC) had almost no power and seemed to just stretch my arm almost to the point of being uncomfortable. Now I'm slowly grasping the dynamics a little better, the power of these movements alone, and then combined with Hsing-I's very aggressive stepping, means the punch really, errr... packs a punch

I could hit fairly hard (if I say so myself ) using Wing Chun punches (we trained them in the air, on padded opponents, against focus mitts, on heavier bags etc) but with the Hsing-I strikes (BC as the given example) I can generate far more power.

This, of course, is just looking at it from a somewhat external angle. I'm yet to learn the more internal approach which is the next step. My instructor has taught such methods to other, more advanced students, and combined with methods of exhaling leads to crazy-ar*ed power delivery.

Also, for Matt if he continues with the HS... although the two-person drills and playing with various random attacks are vital for training, I find that, having learnt four forms, practising these is the biggest tool for development as a beginner.

The more I do them, the more the Hsing-I flavour seems to seep into the two-person drills etc.

Duncan

Att: EvolutionFist. If you're reading this, I tried to reply to your PM but your inbox was full. I need to email you. PM me with your email address and I can write a longer reply regarding the stuff we were chatting about.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This strikes me as a classic case of putting the cart before the horse! The salient point is this: You should train YGKYM so that it becomes your natural way of moving and fighting. My instructor has been in WC for close to 35 years and I see YGKYM in everything he does!!

Yeah sure, I would hope that you can see elements of the Y in everything I do, even if it's only the position of the back thigh and the tuck of the perineum when I'm stepping in with a walking kick. But it's not a question of putting the cart before the horse: it's a question of how much you see a static position in what should be a dynamic situation.

I mean I know, I know all that stuff about only moving when you need to in wing chun... it's a great philosophy to keep in mind, but fights (and competitions and sparring and chi sao and whatever) are dynamic, and the Y is just NOT a way of moving, while there are elements of it I can use in moving.

To me, the situation you describe is a Bil Gee scenario. I.E. I've made a mistake; Im going to get hit/I am getting hit- what can I do to minimise my losses?

I don't hold with BG being an emergency bag of tricks... there's no such thing as a BG situation: BG should be a part of your kung fu, not just 'Ah ****, I'm gonna get it, now where did I put my BG?!' ... Doesn't sound much like a reflex action to me!

First you make the principles of SLT part of your reflex (and in it, with the opening, the start of chi gerk and the huen bo footwork of BG; with the double fuk/lan there's the lan from CK to the elbow from the start of BG, and the bounce punch from CK and the uppercut from BG... etc etc), then the CK principles, then the BG principles. There should be no 'That's a BG technique': it should all be part of the continuum.

To me BG is not a list of emergency techniques, it's a set of active principles to be drilled that give you back your freedom of expression to fight naturally with the principles from SLT and CK and whatever else you're learning. It's to let you out of the box that is the first to basic sets. It's only advanced in that it says, 'You have the basics, but with this short range power/short range body unity, it doesn't matter what you do!'

And yes there are situations where you might do this (what you suggest). However to me WC is like chess in that you have to think more than one move ahead. Yes by ducking you may avoid the first attack but what about the next? Conversley by being upright with your head up and your weight centrally distributed you are in a 'golden mean' or 'goldilocks' position i.e. you can move with equal ease in any direction.

Yes there are situations like this... like how about every situation where you don't wanna get punched in the head...?!

I'm not just talking about ducking, though there is sometimes a need for that. I'm talking about tucking your chin in so you can still see your opponent, plus, in the game of chess, while I'm ducking or even keeping my head down, I'm still striking/lapping etc, I'm not using ducking as my only defence strategy.

I fail to see:

1) How NOT keeping your chin tucked and your head down is a good fight strategy;

2) How doing the above is going to break the magic of WC power generation... I can still adhere to the principle of CMA that says that you have the cord from heavens pulling your head up, it's just pulling it up from the back of your head and therefore straight from your spine which would seem to me to create opposing tensions in your neck that are going to strengthen it in the event of a rocking blow to the head;

3) How having your head up is gonna improve your speed or balance of movement 'with equal ease in any direction'. With my head tucked, I can move in any direction... I'm not talking about a Quasimodo stance!!!

4) How practising both ways is bad...! If my head gets grabbed in the tucked position, I'm not suddenly gonna be projected into the floor, or forced off balance... I can roll my head to one side ('sticky head' TM lol), and pop it back up on the other side of the attack (so duck out and pull back if necessary). If it's grabbed in the straight position I'm gonna have to do the same anyway.

As I see it the fundamental point about YGKYM is that it establishs a 'facing' position. And this is important because WC is about (in the main, although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Moreover by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack. This, combined with the tactile reflexes developed by CHI Sau is what gives the WC player a strategic edge.

Agree completely with the idea of squared-off strategy (though again in practice there are many reasons not to). But you're talking about using the Y as a fighting stance, which to me it just isn't.

I don't really want to turn this into another WC thread (it's the wrong forum!!! ) so I'll respect your right to practise WC very differently to me ... buuuut just a couple of questions:
1) Do you actually fight in the Y stance, with your feet parallel and inverted?
2) Do you never use in a back-weighted stance or a pin ma?
3) Do you not turn (use!) your hips at all?

... Continued

I look forward to it... as I'm still injured so I had to miss my internals class today and prob my WC and shooto tomorrow...

[Mr Punch]

Cheers BnB, I'll get back to you.

[Miles Teg]

Hey Tokyo Matt
Its Nagoya Miles Teg here. I am finding this post very interesting. Got any updates?

Man, theres so much to do in Tokyo. I wish I could move uo there!

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat

I don't hold with BG being an emergency bag of tricks... there's no such thing as a BG situation: BG should be a part of your kung fu, not just 'Ah ****, I'm gonna get it, now where did I put my BG?!' ... Doesn't sound much like a reflex action to me!

There is a non sequiter here- namely that because a technique is for an 'emergency' it therefore cant be instinctive- I see no reason why 'emergency techniques' cant be 'part' of your kung fu (whatever that phrase means exactly). Moreover I wouldnt say treating BG in this way involves any more or less of a reflex action then - 'I'm gonna get hit, better duck' does. In fact thats exactly how I would classify the latter response (as one to use in an emergency).

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mat
First you make the principles of SLT part of your reflex (and in it, with the opening, the start of chi gerk....

I dont practice Chi Gerk. I dont really know what it is. If I can kick then (except in certain limited situations) my opponent can kick too- so my kick has to arrive first- that is all. Also, I dont kick from close range (unless I am behind my opponent) since being on one foot near an opponent stood on two doesnt strike me as an intelligent strategy. To use your phrase - If you think so I want to fight you.

Originally posted by Mat
The bounce punch from CK and the uppercut from BG

My CK has no uppercut and my BG has no hook. The way I do it these punches are just variations of the basic straight punch with the same fundamental biomechanics involved. They are simply about moving the arm/fist from one point to another in a straight line when it is already out without first retracting it-that is all. Which is not to say I would never use a hook/uppercut in a fight- only that this is not the thinking behind those sections of my forms.

Originally posted by Mat
There should be no 'That's a BG technique': it should all be part of the continuum.

I see what you're getting at here and I can agree with the broad tenor of it i.e. that each set builds on the last and introduces you to the next level of WCK development. Again though the continuum can be this- all things being equal this is how I will fight (Using SNT/CK/Dummy techniques/principles etc.) but if I am in trouble i.e.

- If i am pinned against the wall,
- if I have fallen over,
- if both my hands have been grabbed,
- if im fighting more than one person,
- if my kick has been blocked,
- If I need to retreat,
- If one of my hands is injured etc.

then I will use BG techniques (which if you like 'violate' normal WC principles (for example hitting underneath your extended arm when normally you would hit over it) but which the situation nevertheless dictates I use to escape/minimise my losses)

Originally posted by Mat
To me BG is not a list of emergency techniques, it's a set of active principles to be drilled that give you back your freedom of expression to fight naturally

Again, false dichotomy- the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat

1) Do you actually fight in the Y stance, with your feet parallel and inverted?

In my YGKYM SLT stance my feet aren't parrallel. In my 'fighting' stances my feet are parallel, that is they point in the same direction - at a 45 deg. angle- a la chum kiu juen ma (side neutral stance, forward advancing/retreating stance etc.).

However an important point: At times (such as when I enter an opponent/take up their position) my feet 'double track' i.e. they are on two seperate but parrallel lines- this is the footwork from the dummy

Here is an explanation from my sifu as to why:

'I was taught the half circle (and thus double track) for entry by Wong Shun Leung. If your foot enters up the centre of the enemy between their legs it gives you less stability. Also it will change your line of attack and not be able to control their leg. If you half-circle for exmple with the right leg, then your right leg will control their left and their weight is forced onto their other leg which will then stop that being used against you. If you enter for example with the right leg up the centre, you are also more open to having your leg swept as the enemy feels your centre of gravity shift towards one side. I have found myself, that if someone coming in with a bong sau for example and their leg comes up my centre, I can feel their centre of gravity change and it is easy to sweep them or divert their bong sau into a different direction. If their leg half-circles I can feel the force is more controlling on me.'

Originally posted by Mat

2) Do you never use in a back-weighted stance or a pin ma?

My COG is always centrally distributed- when I turn/step/whatever I dont shift it across/over the back leg- if you like I am always 50/50.

Originally posted by Mat

3) Do you not turn (use!) your hips at all?

I turn my stance as one integrated unit and sometimes I rotate my waist (without turning my stance). I dont turn my hips though-this 'collapses' the stance- My hips/pelvis are/is always pushed up and out- this maintains the structural integrity of my stance thus allowing me to channel incoming force into the ground as well as generate my own force via the reverse method.