Bart Jarm Do

[Ross]

There has been an increasing number of sifu's showing the butterfly knives flipped (the side/back of the blade against the forearm with the tip pointing towards the elbow ). This is like a knife position sometimes used in Lung Ying or possibly Hung gar sets.

I would like to hear explanations of why this has recently become popular. I had the impression that flipping the knives backwards into this position somehow violated wing chun principles(the blade is being sent towards yourself and not forwards towards your opponent). Anyone explain this to me? Or has this just been more "flash" added recently?

Thanks R

[old jong]

I have seen peoples do that! Others won't and they all are from Yip Man's lineages! So...Maybe there is an explanation.
IMO,I think that these moves were "cutted out!" when the knifes were adopted in the system.They were adapted to the wing chun principles.
I may be wrong on this but could some have learned their knifes outside of the system? It is said after all that very few completed the system with Yip Man!
I guest that some of you are well documented on this and could share some light?
:confused:

C'est la vie

[Ross]

OJ,

One reason I brought this up is that there is a picture of one of Ip Chings US instructors with his knives held like this....

http://www.stgeorgewingchun.com/home.htm

I too thought that only other WC/VT/WT practitioners were doing this but now I am sure I have seen this from both Ip Ching and Ip Chun lineages.

Anyone from those two lineages care to explain further?

Thanks R

[kungfu cowboy]

My, my...those have GOT to be the coolest pants I have ever seen.

[punchdrunk]

Not many people got to learn the knives form in Wing Chun, but many other systems have butterfly knife forms. I beleive some sifu's learned the other styles versions and tried to pass it off as belonging in our system. If u research into the wu dip do forms of Hung ga or CLF, etc. u may find them to be the same as some Wing Chun sifu's form. But the Wing Chun form should follow the same basic principles of the system. But I wouldn't be to quick to criticize someons form, at least not untill I heard the reasons and explanation of it.
Enjoy your training.

[Watchman]

Wow, people are actually looking at my website!

R: the best person to ask about why Ip Ching teaches the knives to be flipped backwards as part of the Bat Cham Do would be my sifu, Ron Heimberger (the guy in the picture). I'm not skilled, or knowledgable, enough in the principles of the Bot Cham Do to even venture an explanation.

Ron Heimberger can be reached at mail@wckfc.com
BTW, he is in Paris right now teaching seminars, and is on to Bulgaria from there, so there may be a delay in him answering his email (I've been waiting for a few days to hear from him myself). He is, however, very good about answering questions.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[rp]

I have trained a little with the knives. Our Sifu claimed that flipping was used by other Sifu's for show only without useful application.

After experiementing with friends there is no obvious advantage to flipping. The same benefit can be achieved without.

I understand the knive form and training to be conceptual as other forms. It is convenient to flip a butterfly knife but more difficult to flip a normal knife (which in reality you may have in your hand). In fact flipping under pressure may result in dropping the knife! Don't forget you may need to flip back again doubling your chances of dropping the knife.

You rarely see other balde systems flipping their blades, they may twist and twirl them but a firm grip is important.

Just my 2cents

[WT Lawyer]

There is one obvious advantage to flipping the knives: it allows for close range cutting. The inverted grip allows you to attack with techniques such as the cup jarn as seen in the biu jee form.

In general, the knives should be seen as an extention of the hand, and many of the movements done with the knives reflect movements seen in the hand forms and on the dummy. In very close range, where one might otherwise use elbow strikes, the knives can be flipped so as to cut with movements similar to elbow strikes.

[Watchman]

rp: I can assure you that nothing Ip Ching does is for show, and that there are practical uses for flipping the blades under certain circumstances. The actual motion of flipping the blade does not occur until the 8th (final) section of the Bot Cham Do form, as the motion is reserved for emergency situations (sort of the same idea as some the Biu Tze motions being reserved for emergencies - you don't intentionally bend forward at the waist in a fight!).

Well, I put my foot out and ventured an answer. I'm not an expert on the Bot Cham Do, as I am currently in the process of learning them myself. Like I said above, Ron Heimberger is the person to ask - especially pertaining to matters concerning questions about any of Ip Ching's teaching methods.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[This message was edited by Watchman on 02-11-01 at 12:38 PM.]

[rp]

Again, I'll try to say it a little clearer. If you are unlucky enough to fight you will rarely have a knife in your hand. The chances of having a baat jam dao in your hand are even less likely.

You may have a kitchen knife. In hong kong we use beef knives. If you twirl your knife you will drop it. Whilst you twirl it you may even cut yourself.

The elbow strike is interesting and I have heard it before but there are easier ways to stick the knife in the enemy. Still tanks for the thought.

In wing chun you should think in a simple and realistic manner and experiement. Good luck. I hope you Sifu has a good explanation.

[vingtsunstudent]

please read the letter from my teacher concerning the knives.
i don't know about other people flipping the knives nor do i care, i am pretty sure though that we don't flip the knives at all.
wong was one of only a handful to learn the knives & if that's what he teaches i'll go with him.
watchman(please i am not singling you out) & others fairly new to this forum, i have mentioned this before & i don't mean to offend anyone but in the years after yip man's death whenever anyone who had any questions regarding the system or its usages would visit wong for his knowledge.
look if people feel things need to be added then that is evolution, even if it is not for everyone.
everyone in time will see & use wing chun the way they feel fit & i think that this a principal we should all realise.
vts

[Watchman]

Tui Shing Tin and Ip Ching also completed the system under Ip Man (and the two were very good friends of Wong Shun Leung and were with him the night he went to the hosiptal just before his death).

People understandable sought out Wong Shun Leung because he was one of the most visible Wing Chun practitioners because of his fighting escapades. Ip Bo Ching had a comparable reputation (and more experience than Wong), but never had any desire to teach. Wong had an open school and loved sharing his art.

Anyway, I have no idea what methods Wong used to teach the Bot Cham Do, or how his instructors teach it now. I do have the utmost repect for all of them. I trace my lineage through Ip Ching, and therefore concern myself with his methods (rightfully so, I believe).

rp: I carry a knife with me whenever I go out (a habit I learned growing up in New Mexico), so the principles I am currently learning with the Bot Cham Do I feel are directly applicable. Additionally, since my home state issues conceal carry permits, I also carry a slimmed-down .45 automatic pistol whenever I go out with my daughters. Weapons are a major concern of my own personal training philosophy.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[Watchman]

rp: I'm sure my sifu does have a good explanation, however, I wasn't the one with the question. If you don't think flipping the blades is practical, or don't understand why they would be flipped, then by all means, don't do it. I for one won't attempt to use anything in a fight that I don't completely understand, or am proficient with. It sounds like you don't have much of a reason to comment on it anyway, seeing as you stated that you will probably never have to worry about employing a knife in a fight.

vts: I appreciate your plug for your lineage (which I'm assuming you trace through Wong Shun Leung). I couldn't quite tell if you were insinuating that Ip Ching took it upon himself to add things to the Bot Cham Do. All I can say is that Ip Ching says that he practices and teaches Wing Chun (including the knives) exactly as his father taught him to.

Like I said before, if you want to know why Ip Ching teaches the Bot Cham Do the way he does, and what the uses are for the particular aspect of the Bot Cham Do that is in question, then you have the information you need to ask the person who would be able to authoritatively answer the question. If you don't care, you don't care.....and guess what? Neither do I.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[Ross]

Thought I would make another "stab" at getting an answer on this one. I was hoping to have the explanation from Ron Hermberger(sp?)Ip Ching lineage or someone else of a similar rank/knowledge level. Anyone else want to venture forth an explanation for doing something that appears so un Wing Chun ish.

Thanks R

[Watchman]

I was able to catch my sifu a couple of days ago before he leaves for Europe again and was training with him on the Bot Cham Do. I remembered this point, and since I didn't understand it myself (I'm just into the first two sections of the Bot Cham Do) I asked him what the reverse holding position was for since I was watching my kung-fu brother practicing that particular cutting motion on the other side of the room.

(Disclaimer -- remember that this explanation is second hand from him, and from someone who has not been fully through the principles of the Bot Cham Do -- and I'm freakin' tired right now, but saw the post, so here goes).

Anyway, he told me that you would never want to intentionally flip a blade backwards like that going into a fighting situation (what's the purpose of utilizing something that will give you an extra reach advantage if you flip it backwards?). Utilizing that particular movement is in actuality an emergency technique akin to some of the movements found in Biu Tze.

If you find yourself attempting to utilize a knife and you are severely crowded or grappled with, there is a very real and dangerous possibility of having the weapon stripped from you - or the blade flat out grabbed and restrained (and yes, the enemy would slice up his own hand, but the blade would be trapped).

[There is the possibility that if you actually have a knife in your hand in a fight and you make a cut against someone closing with you quickly that isn't severe enough to kill or maim him (yes kids, Wing Chun is a combat art) then you may find the guy on top of you - if you don't use your footwork properly, and no one is perfect. Even after having a major artery slashed it takes 3 seconds before your enemy will go into shock. A lot can happen in 3 seconds.]

Quickly holding the knife close to your own body and turning the blade backwards along your forearm allows you to cut using diagonal upward and downward slashing motions (exactly like Biu Tze's kup jarn) allowing you to attack with full power AS AN EXIT MANEUVER from the grapple or crowding attempt. You get crowded, turn the blade, cut with power generated from the waist as you step to regain your range, then turn the **** blade back where it's suppsed to be.

You have to remember that "back in the day" blade fighting in combat situations wasn't usually one-on-one, especially on the battlefield. While you are carving up the enemy in front of you, you can have guys moving in from the sides and attempting to clash/crowd or "body-block" you onto the ground. In the modern world as well your potential enemy isn't going to stand there in knifing range to let you use your full mobility and cutting power -- he's often going to try and invade to strip your weapon or tie you up so he doesn't get cut.

Ron had us bust out the rubber training "fighting knives" to practice this movement while someone closes in tight to use their body as an attempt to control your cutting motions. Sometimes I could just keep my knife blade-forward and cut through the attempt, but sometimes I had to use a huen sau circling motion to twist the knife back as I was being grappled with, then jut my elbow up and slash my way out. It was easier to control the knife because I was using precise, tight movements.

My sifu also took hold of one of the little rubber knives and said "take it from me" by having me get close to him (within grappling/elbow range)and try to pin his arm to strip the knife. Guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I coldn't get a hold of the knife, or his **** arm, because each time he would shift his hips and turn the blade as he held his arm close to his body then cut me right across my throat or the inside of my arms while he was still in close.

This cutting motion is only seen in the 8th and final section of the Bot Cham Do as Ip Ching teaches it. The entire prior portion of the form is done with the knives blade forward, as they should be when in your proper weapon ranges -- but you don't always have the luxury of choosing where you will find yourself in a particular encounter. Therefore, turning the blades backwards is seen as an emergency maneuver (only done if you have the hand and forearm control, AND only as a way to find your exit from the grapple so you can turn them back).

It may seem a little "un-wing-chun-ish", but so does the portion of Biu Tze where you bend your head forward at the waist at the end of the form. Why in God's name would you ever intentionally bend forward like that in a fight? Seems a little "un-wing-chun-ish", doesn't it? But, if you ever find yourself in a head lock, or have your head pulled forward in a grappling maneuver, you better know how to get back upright so you can continue the fight.

Hope that made some sense. Like I said, my above answer was the result of a ten minute explanation by my sifu, plus another fifteen minutes of quick practice with the "little knives" so I could visualize it, before he reminded me that my body mechanics sucked and had me get back to practicing my footwork.

BTW, Ip Ching is coming out here in May, so I'll get brave and ask him what his old man had to say about this whole question when he learned the Bot Cham Do from him personally.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[This message was edited by Watchman on 03-17-01 at 01:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by Watchman on 03-17-01 at 01:08 AM.]