Bart Jarm Do

[reneritchie]

Hi John,

Interesting, though somewhat controversial topic. Here's my understanding, fwiw.

Foshan students - I've heard both flip and no flip, though I have also heard Yip Man did not teach weapons in Foshan.

HK - It's my understanding Yip Man began teaching San Sik, later taught the 3 forms and half the dummy, until a private student paid a small fortune to learn more, which led to problems with previous students (some sorted out, some not). The knives seem to go from very simple one section to 4, 8, then 12, then back to a different 8, and some reportedly did learn flipping directly from Yip Man (though some have said this was an experiment from Yip sifu based on some exchange). Few learned knives directly, and some, when he was sick, were asked to go get the rest from junior classmates. Some did, some balked, others came back and may have got them from Yip later, others filled in with other stuff.

Leung Sheung - I've seen several students of his doing incredibly different knife sets. Some don't flip, some flip in ways I've never seen before (one into a double handle catch above the head). I default to Ken Chung sifu's form, which does not flip and seems simple enough to fit my understanding of how the knives were back then. I think basic once out, once back.

Lok Yiu - Flips, according to a couple of European students. I read an old article where Lok said he had much more interest in pole than knives, however.

Tsui Sheung-Ting - Doesn't flip. Simple, sensible form, I think 4 sections.

Yip Bo-Ching - Doesn't flip (though never seen the form)

Lo Man-Kam - Flips. Similar to Yip Chun/Ching set.

Wong Shun-Leung - Doesn't flip, 8-12 sections depending on who you talk to. Some say their knives are blunt and used for breaking rather than cutting.

Wong Kiu - Doesn't flip, 4 sections if memory serves. The version I saw held the knives flat almost exclusively (like a spatula)

William Cheung - I heard similar to you from a tape, that the current variations of the form were created as a replacement for an older version. I've not been able to find out what an older version may have been, but have heard his main sihing was Tsui Sheung-Tin and there may be similarity)

Hawkins Cheung - Doesn't flip. Very similar to Ho Kam-Ming set.

Duncan Leung - I've heard he doesn't flip and that his set is similar to Ho Kam-Ming (though I've seen pictures that look flipped but might just have been poses)

Koo Sang - Have heard he doesn't flip, though I have seen pictures from that lineage with flipped knives (may not mean anything). Similar to Leung Ting and Moy Yat set, I think. I've heard Koo Sang, Yip Ching, Yip Chun, Moy Yat, Leung Ting, and Lo Man-Kam are all similar and some may have worked/trained together.

Yip Chun/Ching - Flip. They looked like the same set to me but some in that lineage have said there are differences.

Stewart Fung (Fung Hong) - Flip. Reportedly learned in same session as Yip Ching and is nearly identical.

Leung Ting - Doesn't flip.

Your point on Gaun Do is also something some do with Kwun Do and seems to pop up mostly in the latter 8 section form.

As an aside, the Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung knives don't flip, Pao Fa Lien don't flip, most Gulao don't flip (some do Siu Lam knives instead and do flip). I've seen Chan Yiu-Min knives flipped. Pan Nam does a Hung set with flips. Cho Ga flips but might be from Choy Lai-Fut.

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

[wingchunalex]

i read some articles on buddha hand wing chun. they flip the knives. they even flip the knives an do jam gaun on the dummy. its really interesting because we don't flip knives at my school either.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[hunt1]

This discussion and most discussions of the knife form tend to be very superficial and flipping seems to always be a focus.
The question really should be what do you learn from the form.if you focus on that the number of sections ,flip or not to flip etc become trivial.
All forms can be done with the knifes,SLT requires a few little changes.The knife form can be and should be done open handed.To me the form is merely a 4th hand set done with knives as a training tool.
I have been taught 4 knife sets and seen a few intersting ones.Many interesting and valuable fighting concepts are contained in the set.Most notably fighting at range.In fact if you look at the knife set from an open hand point of view you will see much of William Cheungs TWC.
As to the number of sections,does it matter?You should and can practice the knives with all WC hands,arms.If a knife form doesnt show a bong do for example it doesnt mean you cant bong with the knives.Often people restict their development by restricting their understanding to what is only shown in forms.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Flipping is used as a method of recovery. Should the opponent's weapon react towards one's dao rather strongly and one is about to lose their weapon then flip and use. Much like a recovery from a man sao.

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

Interesting, where does that explination come from? Is the flip structurally sound enough to survive that type of application without the practitioner becoming disarmed (of weapon or actual limb?) I've played against some heavy, well structured pole and found anything deviating from solid, aligned grip during interaction risky.

FWIW- I never learned flipping when I learned knives but did learn methods of recovery through changing (as one would the arms). These seem to work well against heavy pole.

In Wing Chun branches that historically do flip the knives, the application seems the same as that of other Nam Kuen--to protect the arteries inside the arm when overwhelmed and provide a shield for withdrawing.

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

History doesn't prove use. Testing skills does. Demonstration mode is easy to prove anything. Using words can also.
Every Martial Art I have studied has flipping of weapons. Everything is useful at the right moment, even Yin and Yang.
When an opponent pressures his weapon against yours a flip can change the outcome to your advantage.
Historically??? we do not live in the old days anymore, therefore the use of these techniques have been lost already. It is important to explore every possible method, every possible energy application,every possible angle, every possible stance, then you will know the truth.

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

I think that's a good point but everything needs to follow within reason. For example, you seem to often give the advice of looking to SLT. If I were to insert a jumping spinning back kick into SLT, and look to it, I may not get a WCK answer. I see the comment on knives the same. Just because other systems have knives that flip, doesn't mean its WCK, just as other systems have butterfly kicks that flip the whole body around doesn't mean WCK had one, or that it will fit into WCK.

I can see a flip working in some situations but I can also see it proving disasterous (I've seen a *very* famous student of Yip Man, with whom I'm sure you're familiar drop the knife while flipping while under little or no pressure).

Do you think its impossible to accomplish what you do flipping without flipping? (ie, in structurally sounder manner?) If so, I certainly understand doing it. If not, I default to safer 8)

Rgds,

RR

[chi-kwai]

Your point is well made, and I agree with you completely. Even so, it boils down to how you were taught. There are people that include round kicks and high kicks in wing chun, there are those that don't.

If you are one that is capable of executing such actions at the appropriate times or without fault, then more power to you. Personally, I am going to stick to the simple and effective as I have been taught.

--
chi kwai

[sunkuen]

Being able to do that fancy flippin' just adds a little more skill and finesse to your hands,nobodys makin you flip the knives during combat. ;)

[reneritchie]

Agreed. However, I'd add that, IMHO, it shouldn't end with what you were taught. Yip Man sifu is often quoted as advising his students not to trust him, that he may be tricking him and they should go out and test for themselves.

My own sifu gave me a great gift when teaching me as well. He told me he could pass on the art as it was passed on to him but that I had to go out and see for myself.

So, in the end, I feel everyone is responsible for their own WCK (though I certainly understand and believe in drinking the water and remembering its source 8)

WRT to things like roundhouse kicks and flipping, which do not appear to be native to WCK but which some have extrapolated or imported, I think that if they prove very effective, they deserve the credit and if not, WCK doesn't deserve the blame. Perhaps that stems from my own learning, however, where changes, if any, appear to have been well documented and the reasons for them explained, so everyone knew what was and what is and could choose what would be 8)

Rgds,

RR

[hunt1]

To flip or not to flip that is the question.
How many of you knife experts have ever fought with knives or done full speed sparring with a non-WC person using only head gear and leather gloves as protection,and dull blades.I have.
The only instance where i would ever suggest an intential flip would be when attempting a roof cover against a longer weapon and the flipped knife is the back up.
Knife fighting is even faster and more brutal than open hand.Your survival requires a mind set that accepts getting killed.You will strike and cut or be cut so fast that you will never have time for a flip.
Flipping is nice for dextarity training and could be used against a longer slower weapon if no other options were available.

[Roy D. Anthony]

A spinning kick added to Siu Lim Tao is definitely nothing like adding a flip to your broadsword. Think of what is being said here.

It as as obvious as this:
Tan is stronger than Bong.
However bong is still taught.
The Kiu Sao of the arm bends back.
Similarly, with swords, there are stronger techniques than flipping, however having the flip is parallel to the Bong sao. Close range Sword techniques.
Similarly, Fencing does not bend the sword back, yet in close range they allow this to happen, which allows the fencer to use the Pummel. Therefore the term, Pummeling someone.

[reneritchie]

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm following. In my experience, neither Tan nor Bong have much to do with strength. If either meets resistence, I don't try to outmuscle them, but to change to an advantageous position. Is your experience different?

I don't know anything much about sword or fencing, only a little Wing Chun knife, so I'm not sure about that aspect. I learned Bong Do without flipping, however (pretty close to how I've seen Yip Man students like Ho Kam-Ming or Wong Shun-Leung do it). Could you explain it with flipping?

In my experience, the wrist becomes the elbow, the knife the literal "iron bridge", and once you have that, if your hands are already good, there's the knife system.

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

Perhaps that is the confusion. You have been learning the Knife version. I have been speaking of the sword version.
Strength can mean many things. Structure comes to mind.I do not teach online. If you need to learn then Join my classes.

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

We might be talking past each other. In most systems of Wing Chun Kuen (inluding Yip Man), there is no "sword", only "knife" (no "gim/jian" only "do/dao"). Sword is found in Taiji and other arts (or like Li Mu-Bai used in Crouching Tiger), and is completely different from WCK Seung Do (Double Knives).

And thanks for the offer, though I still have a lot to learn I'm happy with my present sifu. All I'm looking for here is simply the courtesy of discussion on what is, after all, a discussion forum.

I tend to look at discussion as Chi Sao. I roll, probe a little, and see. If someone has good
structure (knows what they're talking about and can support their views, whether I agree or not), everything stays centered like Siu Lien/Nim Tao and we both benefit. If someone can't/won't share, I find they go into Chum Kiu (turning the conversation or stepping into tangents) and then you can add or subtract and keep them going. Fun but not as productive. If they panic (want to save face instead of sharing) I find they may go into Biu Jee (trying to recover through empty bluster or overwhelm with personal insult). Then I tend to let them fall around as they like and console myself to finding a more productive partner.

Rgds,

RR